Why anti-Trinitarianism is not biblical

[Guest shiloh357]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Oh, sure it is. You know from Scripture that the Father (GOD) preexisted Creation from Genesis 1-2. You know from John 1 that the WORD (who was with the GOD and who was GOD) and that the WORD was made flesh and was then named "Yeshua`," but where do you find the "Holy Spirit preexisted Creation?" Just curious about your perception.

 

Well the Holy Spirit is God, and God predated/preexisted the creation of the universe, so naturally the Holy Spirit preexisted the universe with God the Father.  He is an eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14).  He shared His glory as being the same as the Father and the Son (1 Pet. 4:14).  He is called the "Spirit of Life," which affirms the eternal life of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:2). 

The following Scriptures give explicit proof that the Holy Spirit had a part i creating (Gen. 1:2; Psalm 33:6, 104:29-30; Job 26:13, 33:4; Isa. 40:3)  It doesn't take too much to understand that in order to create, you have to preexist that which you are creating.
 

Quote

 

No, Jesus is not called "God" in John 1:1-3, nor is He called the Word of God. To the contrary, and this is important, the WORD was called God and then the WORD was made flesh and THEN He was called "Yeeshuwa`" (or "Jesus," a bad transliteration and bad pronunciation today of the Greek transliteration ["Ieesous" pronounced "yay-SOOS"] of "Yeshua`" [pronounced "Yay-SHUW-`ah"]) after He was born. At one time, "Jesus" was pronounced "Yay-SOOS," like the Greek, but it has taken on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT pronunciation today.

Okay, I'm alright with that; "In the beginning was being the Word, and the Word was being with God, and the Word was being God." OR, "In the beginning the Word used to be, and the Word used to be with God and the Word used to be God." That's what the imperfect translates to in English. Jesus IS NEVER called God; however, the WORD IS called God. The Word, on the other hand, WAS MADE FLESH. THEN, He was named "Yeshua`." That's not just verbal gymnastics; that's being true to the Scriptures and their timing!

 

"Jesus"  "The Word"  "Yeshua"  all refer to the same Person in the Trinity.  You are trying, in futility, to parse titles as if they refer to different persons or entities and they don't.   Jesus was "The Word"  prior to His Incarnation as Yeshua/Jesus.   It doesn't matter which name/or title you use, they all refer to the same person who is conventionally known as "Jesus." 

Quote

No, all things were made by the Word. The Word is the Creator of Genesis 1.

No, Heb. 1:1-2 and Colossians 1:15-18 confirm that Jesus is the Creator.  And as I said earlier, "The Word" is just one more title that describes Jesus.

Quote

Not really. That's an excuse for not knowing the reason that Yeshua` was called the Son of God, but it is not the true reason. The TRUE reason is found in 2 Samuel 7:14:

No, that is not correct.  Messianic Jews typically understand that Jesus was referencing His deity.  That is not in dispute.  "Son of"  was just another term for Jesus deity.  Messianic Jews who actually know the Scriptures and know Jewish customs, know that to be the case.

Quote

 

There you go using that phrase, "doubled down." I don't think you know what it means. What Yeshua` SAID was this:

John 10:34-38
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods?"
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
KJV

And, yes, the Greek DOES bear it out better, but the Hebrew is the best!

Psalm 82:6
6 Aniy aamartiy elohiym atem uwVneey `elyown kulkhem:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

Aniy = I
aamartiy = I-have-said
elohiym = gods
atem = you (are)
uwVneey = and-sons
`elyown = of-Most-High
kulkhem: = all-of-you (are):

In other words, Yeshua` was making it NOT unique to Himself! In fact, He belittled Himself in favor of glorifying His Father, God, whose works (deeds) He was doing ... as INSTRUCTED by God to do! "If I'm not doing my Father's works, then don't believe me. But, if I AM doing them, then even if you won't believe me, believe the WORKS!"

 

Yeah, that's sloppy argument.  Jesus' enemies perceived Jesus was calling Himself God by referring to Himself as the "Son of God" and they took it as blasphemous.   Jesus did not correct their perception.   Instead he reinforced that perception.   If calling Himself the "Son of God"  was not a reference to deity, why would it be considered blasphemous?

Those of us who understand Hebraic culture understand that Jesus was using a light to heavy rabbinic argument in John 10: 34-36.   Messianic Jewish Commentator David Stern makes a fine observation:  "Yeshua's wordplay implies a rabbinic-style kal v'chomer argument (Mat_6:30): if humans, who do evil works as they "judge unjustly" are elohim, how much more is Yeshua, who does good works (Joh_10:25, Joh_10:32-33, Joh_10:37-38) Elohim; and if "all of you are sons of the Most High," how much more does the description "Son of God" apply to Yeshua."

Quote

 

Hmmm.... Well, there's a little problem with this understanding. First, Daniel 7:13 (in the TANAKH) uses the Aramaic words "kVar enaash," which means "like-an-heir of-a-mortal-man." I don't know if He was using that phrase, or the phrase from the Torah (Numbers 23:19), "uwVen aadaam," meaning "and-a-son of-Adam/man." It could have been the same phrase repeated in Iyov (Job 25:6; 35:8), in the Psalms (Psalm 8:5; 80:18 [ben aadaam]; 146:3 [b-Ven aadaam]), in Yesha`yahu (Isaiah 51:12 [uwmiben aadaam]; 56:2), in Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 49:18, 33; 50:40; 51:43), and in Y'chezk'el (Ezekiel 2:1 and following 93x [ben aadaam]): Only in Psalm 144:3 is the same phrase used as in Daniel 7:13 (only in Hebrew), "ben enowsh."

The Greek phrase is "ho huios tou anthroopou," "the son of-the man," referring to a "human being" a "mortal man."

 

Actually, everyone except those who are not schooled Bible prophecy knows that Jesus' self-reference as, "The Son of man" is a reference to Daniel 7:13-14.   It is one of the titles of the Messiah.   It does not mean that Jesus was merely human.

In fact, Matt. 26:63-64  makes that point:

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.(Mat 26:63-64)

In that passage "Messiah" (or Christ) and Son of God are equated with each other and Jesus answered in the affirmative that He is both Messiah and Son of God and then referenced Dan. 7:13-14, which resulted in another accusation of that Jesus had committed blasphemy.  That only reinforces the truth that Jesus claimed to be God.
 

Quote

 

REALLY?! Only sloppy exegesis would EQUATE them! Why would they be given different words/phrases if they were one and the same?! That's TRULY AMAZING that you would take that position! I just find it ironic that we see the one verse, Romans 8:9, SO VERY differently!

 

The Bible makes it clear that the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.  They are equated here:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  (Rom 8:9)

Notice here:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.(Rom 8:14-15)

Compare that with: 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Gal 4:6)

So we can easily see that the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same.

On 6/5/2017 at 11:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Oh, sure it is. You know from Scripture that the Father (GOD) preexisted Creation from Genesis 1-2. You know from John 1 that the WORD (who was with the GOD and who was GOD) and that the WORD was made flesh and was then named "Yeshua`," but where do you find the "Holy Spirit preexisted Creation?" Just curious about your perception.

No, Jesus is not called "God" in John 1:1-3, nor is He called the Word of God. To the contrary, and this is important, the WORD was called God and then the WORD was made flesh and THEN He was called "Yeeshuwa`" (or "Jesus," a bad transliteration and bad pronunciation today of the Greek transliteration ["Ieesous" pronounced "yay-SOOS"] of "Yeshua`" [pronounced "Yay-SHUW-`ah"]) after He was born. At one time, "Jesus" was pronounced "Yay-SOOS," like the Greek, but it has taken on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT pronunciation today.

Okay, I'm alright with that; "In the beginning was being the Word, and the Word was being with God, and the Word was being God." OR, "In the beginning the Word used to be, and the Word used to be with God and the Word used to be God." That's what the imperfect translates to in English. Jesus IS NEVER called God; however, the WORD IS called God. The Word, on the other hand, WAS MADE FLESH. THEN, He was named "Yeshua`." That's not just verbal gymnastics; that's being true to the Scriptures and their timing!

No, all things were made by the Word. The Word is the Creator of Genesis 1.

Not really. That's an excuse for not knowing the reason that Yeshua` was called the Son of God, but it is not the true reason. The TRUE reason is found in 2 Samuel 7:14:

2 Samuel 7:8-17
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

This promise (prophecy) is noted in two other places: 1 Chronicles 22:10 and 1 Chronicles 28:6:

1 Chronicles 22:7-16
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:
8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and HE SHALL BE MY SON, AND I WILL BE HIS FATHER; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.
12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.
13 Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.
14 Now, behold, in my trouble I have prepared for the house of the LORD an hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand thousand talents of silver; and of brass and iron without weight; for it is in abundance: timber also and stone have I prepared; and thou mayest add thereto.
15 Moreover there are workmen with thee in abundance, hewers and workers of stone and timber, and all manner of cunning men for every manner of work.
16 Of the gold, the silver, and the brass, and the iron, there is no number. Arise therefore, and be doing, and the LORD be with thee.
KJV

1 Chronicles 28:2-21
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I HAVE CHOSEN HIM TO BE MY SON, AND I WILL BE HIS FATHER.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.
KJV

Whereas this COULD have been talking about Shlomoh (Solomon) at the time, because Shlomoh did not adhere to the LORD with all His heart but multiplied to himself gold, horses, and wives, the 700 wives and 300 concubines turning his heart away from the LORD to worship idols and false gods, the prophecy passed on to the true Seed, the future Messiah (Anointed One), Yeshua`.

Deuteronomy 17:14-17
14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
KJV

Sounds like God knew what was coming, doesn't it?

1 Kings 10:16-11:6
16 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.
17 And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
18 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
20 And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.
21 And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it (silver) was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.
22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
25 And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
26 And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27 And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28 And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29 And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.
11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange (foreign) women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
KJV

However, THIS is why Yeshua` was called "the Son of God." It's a fulfillment of this prophecy!

There you go using that phrase, "doubled down." I don't think you know what it means. What Yeshua` SAID was this:

John 10:34-38
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods?"
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
KJV

And, yes, the Greek DOES bear it out better, but the Hebrew is the best!

Psalm 82:6
6 Aniy aamartiy elohiym atem uwVneey `elyown kulkhem:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

Aniy = I
aamartiy = I-have-said
elohiym = gods
atem = you (are)
uwVneey = and-sons
`elyown = of-Most-High
kulkhem: = all-of-you (are):

In other words, Yeshua` was making it NOT unique to Himself! In fact, He belittled Himself in favor of glorifying His Father, God, whose works (deeds) He was doing ... as INSTRUCTED by God to do! "If I'm not doing my Father's works, then don't believe me. But, if I AM doing them, then even if you won't believe me, believe the WORKS!"

Hmmm.... Well, there's a little problem with this understanding. First, Daniel 7:13 (in the TANAKH) uses the Aramaic words "kVar enaash," which means "like-an-heir of-a-mortal-man." I don't know if He was using that phrase, or the phrase from the Torah (Numbers 23:19), "uwVen aadaam," meaning "and-a-son of-Adam/man." It could have been the same phrase repeated in Iyov (Job 25:6; 35:8), in the Psalms (Psalm 8:5; 80:18 [ben aadaam]; 146:3 [b-Ven aadaam]), in Yesha`yahu (Isaiah 51:12 [uwmiben aadaam]; 56:2), in Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 49:18, 33; 50:40; 51:43), and in Y'chezk'el (Ezekiel 2:1 and following 93x [ben aadaam]): Only in Psalm 144:3 is the same phrase used as in Daniel 7:13 (only in Hebrew), "ben enowsh."

The Greek phrase is "ho huios tou anthroopou," "the son of-the man," referring to a "human being" a "mortal man."

REALLY?! Only sloppy exegesis would EQUATE them! Why would they be given different words/phrases if they were one and the same?! That's TRULY AMAZING that you would take that position! I just find it ironic that we see the one verse, Romans 8:9, SO VERY differently!

Actually, you're partially quoting from Hebrews 

Hebrews 13:4-5
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

which is quoted from...

Deuteronomy 31:1-6
1 And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
2 And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
3 The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said.
4 And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.
5 And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

So, it was GOD, the FATHER, who said that!

Perhaps, we should just table this discussion for another time, a time when you are more ready to hear what I have to say, IF that ever comes. I DO, however, recognize that Yeshua` is the Word who was made flesh; as such, He IS the SAME PERSON who was with God and who was God, whether He is exactly like God His Father now or not.

Jesus is God and such carries the same attributes as the Father.  And Jesus reflects that truth in Matt. 28: 20 when He said "...and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world."

And here as well:

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.  (Joh 14:18-23)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.  (Joh 14:26)

Jesus is always with us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit.  And yet, the Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Son.   The Holy Spirit is sent from the Father in the Name of Jesus.   This means that the Holy Spirit is neither the Father or the Son.  He is a separate person from them, both.

Quote

Perhaps, we should just table this discussion for another time, a time when you are more ready to hear what I have to say, IF that ever comes.

So we should not have a discussion until I just surrender to your view and if I disagree with you it's because I am not ready to receive what you have to say.   Sounds like what a cult leader would say.

We can table the discussion any time you are not ready to refute my points.  Until then, I will continue to post just so that people will not be led astray by your false, unbiblical nonsense. I do my best to make sure your views are rejected by others on board so that no one is influenced by you.

[brakelite]

Inherent in any discussion on the trinity, is the often presumed criticism of non-trinitarians claiming that in denying the trinity, it is an automatic denial of the divinity of Christ. Now I am not what the 'orthodox' among us would call a trinitarian. I believe the same as the apostle Paul, who in the face of rampant idolatry specifically declared to a church born among idols, "that there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in Him...." 1 Cor. 8:6

I also agree with Jesus, who said that even our eternal life depended upon our acceptance and knowledge of the one true God, saying in a prayer to His Father, "and this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God...."

Now of course any of you looking up the verses above would instantly recognize that there is a reference in each, to another person, Jesus Christ. So, now that we have discovered who the one true God is, (the Father), let us now see who the Bible writers say Jesus is.....

 

 

Who is Jesus? Is He, as the church constantly teaches, god the son? Or is He the Son of God?

Mark knew who Jesus is.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

John knew who Jesus is.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Nathanael knew who Jesus is.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Peter knew who Jesus is.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The eunuch knew who Jesus is.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jesus was mocked when He was on the cross. What did they mock Him about?

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

They questioned whether Jesus is the Son of God! Is this not the same as is done in the Christian denominations that believe in the trinity doctrine? Are we not saying that Jesus is not the Son of GOD by calling Him “God the Son”???

The centurion knew who Jesus is.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

The disciples knew who Jesus is.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Martha knew who Jesus is.

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

What did Jesus say about Himself?

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

What blasphemy are we doing by calling Jesus “God the Son” when we have no Biblical basis in doing this. “God the Son” and the Son of GOD are not the same. “God the Son” is a title, and this does not make Jesus the Son of God.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

John 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus called Himself the “the only begotten Son of God”.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

In the Bible we see that we must confess that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

The only name that can save us is Jesus the Son of God.
And in case you are wondering, there is no way a coequal co-eternal God as in God the Son be any kind of son other than metaphorical. But ask yourself. Did the eternal Father give a metaphor to die for mankind, or did He give mankind the greatest gift possible, His only literal begotten Son?

When I read John 3:16 that informs me that God gave His only begotten Son, I believe it. I believe God had a Son to give. That said, I do not believe as taught by orthodox Christianity that the Son is of the same "age" as the Father. Such an understanding simply turns Jesus into an unbegotten being the same as the Father, which in turn completely denies the personality of both Father and Son, which John tells us is Antichrist.

What is so difficult in simply accepting what the Bible says, and not making assumptions on subjects and areas about which the scriptures remain silent?