The Book of Enoch

[Jude1:3]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The iron and clay cannot join to make an alloy.   So that cannot represent angels and humans that DO join together to make a hybrid (alloy) giant.

 

It's not the natural order of things. That's why they won't cleave to one another. That's why they can't produce offspring.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Jude1:3 said:

 

It's not the natural order of things. That's why they won't cleave to one another. That's why they can't produce offspring.

But the angels and humans DO produce offspring...   The giants during the antediluvian period.   So....   You are not really making an internally consistent argument.    You are using the iron and clay that can't produce anything to represent the angels and humans that are said to have created offspring.   So I think you need to sit down and think this through a little better.

[Jude1:3]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

But the angels and humans DO produce offspring...   The giants during the antediluvian period.   So....   You are not really making an internally consistent argument.    You are using the iron and clay that can't produce anything to represent the angels and humans that are said to have created offspring.   So I think you need to sit down and think this through a little better.

 

There's nothing to think out. It's happened and it will happen again.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Jude1:3 said:

 

There's nothing to think out. It's happened and it will happen again.

There is something to think out.    You have rejected Daniel's interpretation which means you have rejected the Holy Spirit's interpretation of that vision for your own.  You have placed your opinion over the Scriptures and you have proven that you cannot make a coherent argument.  

Sorry, but no one with any Holy Spirit led discernment will accept your man-made interpretation over what how the Scriptures interpret the vision. 

[Enoch2021]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is some pretty bad exegesis.

Really?  Well we're gonna see.   

 

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That is talking about the Roman Empire.

"What" is talking about the Roman Empire...?

 

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the vision is about four kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

 This is correct.  But Rome in Two-Parts (and NOT the Western and Eastern Legs)...

 

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"Seed of men" is a reference the nations of the world or humanity in general.

Correct.  But "WHO" is "Mingling Themselves" with  "The Seed of Men"...?  Can't be "The Seed Of Men" because that's what the world and humanity is and renders the entire passage quite incoherent.

 

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The Roman empire was multi-cultural and multi-ethnic.

 So??  The Grecian Empire (Dwarfed) the Roman Empire both in scope and in multi-cultural/ethnic aspects.

 

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It is prophesying the historic split of the Roman Empire into east and west.

Well the Iron Legs were Rome.

The Toes OF the Feet were Iron 'Mixed With' Clay.  See the subtle difference?  The Toes are in reference to "End Times".  And the 10 Toes are the 10 Kings.  This is also "Echoed" in Daniel Chapter 7 (10 Horns) and Revelation (10 Horns). 

(Daniel 2:44) "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Ya see, this ^^^^ is the Part you Left Out (mr. "Context"). 

 

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The fourth Kingdom is made up of iron and clay and the clay split from the iron.  Roman split into two parts, east and west.

Yes but the Eastern Leg (Byzantine Empire) Vanished/Dissolved in 1453 (The Western Leg 1000 Years before that).  Which renders your entire treatise as convoluted and nonsensical.

See it?

 

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The latter part of the verse jumps to the Kingdom that God will establish and will destroy the other kingdoms.

There is No "Jumping"   It Clearly and Directly associates the time of these 10 Kings and God's Kingdom...

(Daniel 2:41-44) "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.  {42} And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  {43} And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.  {44} And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."  

 

So for your "Exegesis" to hold any water, you must show God destroying the 10 Kings with "The Stone Cut Without Hands" (Jesus Christ) and Establishing His Kingdom that stands forever on or before the year 1453. 

Please, the floor is yours...?

 

 

regards

[Jude1:3]

So let us once again review the mountain of Evidence that supports The Book of Enoch:

#1 - Four Different Church Fathers making Reference to The Book of Enoch As Scripture:

•Tertullian     On the Apparel of Women I 3:1-3.    (160-220 A.D.)

“I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order of action to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason for rejecting it, let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather’s ‘grace in the sight of God,’ (Genesis 6:8) and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of his preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition of things made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.
“If Noah had not had this conservative power by so short a route, there would still be this consideration to warrant our assertion of the genuineness of this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.
“But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that ‘every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired.’ (2 Timothy 3:16) By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other portions nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude.” (Jude 1:14-15)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm

 

• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 2 - Chapter 10

But, if the self-same angels who disclosed both the material substances of this kind and their charms— of gold, I mean, and lustrous stones— and taught men how to work them, and by and by instructed them, among their other (instructions), in (the virtues of) eyelid-powder and the dyeings of fleeces, have been condemned by God, As Enoch Tells Us, how shall we please God while we joy in the things of those (angles) who, on these accounts, have provoked the anger and the vengeance of God?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm

 

 

• Irenaeus,  The Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 18      (130-202 A.D)

“And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them: and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants. And the angels brought as presents to their wives teachings of wickedness, in that they brought them the virtues of roots and herbs, dyeing in colours and cosmetics, the discovery of rare substances, love-potions, aversions, amours, concupiscence, constraints of love, spells of bewitchment, and all sorcery and idolatry hateful to God; by the entry of which things into the world evil extended and spread, while righteousness was diminished and enfeebled.”

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.htm

http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/enoch/the-church-fathers-and-the-book-of-enoch/

 

 

• Origen - de Principiis - Book 1 - Chapter 3 - Section 3     (185-254 A.D.)

That all things were created by God, and that there is no creature which exists but has derived from Him its being, is established from many declarations of Scripture; those assertions being refuted and rejected which are falsely alleged by some respecting the existence either of a matter co-eternal with God, or of unbegotten souls, in which they would have it that God implanted not so much the power of existence, as equality and order. For even in that little treatise called The Pastor or Angel of Repentance, composed by Hennas, we have the following: "First of all, believe that there is one God who created and arranged all things; who, when nothing formerly existed, caused all things to be; who Himself contains all things, but Himself is contained by none." And In The Book Of Enoch Also We Have Similar Descriptions.

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/anf/ANF-04/anf04-45.htm#P6244_1101010

 

 

• Anatolius  (Third Century)- Ante Nicene Fathers - Book 6 - Section 5

But I shall pass on without demanding such copious demonstrations (on subjects ) from which the veil of the Mosaic law has been removed; for now it remains for us with unveiled face to behold ever as in a glass Christ Himself and the doctrines and sufferings of Christ. But that the first month among the Hebrews is about the equinox, Is Clearly Shown Also By What Is Taught In The Book Of Enoch.

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/anf/ANF-06/anf06-57.htm#P2468_688069

 

 

#2 - Josephus making reference to Angels mating with Humans to create Giants:

 

• Titus Flavius Josephus -  The Antiquities of the Jews - Book 1, Chapter 3,

(37-100 A.D.)

 

Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers, and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed to them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men.  But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness; whereby they made God to be their enemy, for Many Angels Of God Accompanied With Women And Begat Sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians Called Giants.  But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm#link2HCH0003

 

 

#3 - Justin Martyr making reference to Fallen Angels mating with Humans:

 

• Justin Martyr wrote in his Second Apology - Chapter 5   (100-165 A.D.)

“But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them“. 

Justin Martyr - Second Apology - Chapter 5

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

 

# 4 - The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church having The Book of 1 Enoch in Their Official Biblical Canon from Ancient times and having a connection to Israel through Queen Sheba and King Solomon:

 

http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html

 

 

 

# 5- The Book of Enoch with The Dead Sea Scrolls and use with The Pre Christian Essenes (200-150 A.D.)

 

  https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr3.html

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

 

 

 

 

 

# 6 - John Strugnell who was apart of The Dead Sea Scrolls editorial team said he was shown full copies of The Book of Enoch in Aramaic  

 

http://bibeltemplet.net/enoch-aramaic.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Enoch_Scroll

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Strugnell

 

 

 

 

# 7 - Athenagoras of Alexandria also mentions Fallen Angels mating with humans in his work A Plea For The Christians in Chapters 24 and 25

 

• Athenagoras of Alexandria - A Plea For The Christians - Chapters 24 and 25 :       (133-190 A.D.)

 

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/anf/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm#P2397_653146

 

Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power; and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them by you, and others faithless), so is it among the angels. Some, free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants.91 And if something has been said by the poets, too, about the giants, be not surprised at this: worldly Wisdom and divine differ as much from each other as truth and plausibility: the one is of heaven and the other of earth; and indeed, according to the prince of matter,-    Chapter 24

 

These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged. But the prince of matter, as may be seen merely from what transpires, exercises a control and management contrary to the good that is in God:-  Chapter 25

 

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/anf/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm#P2397_653146

 

[Justin Adams]

OH OH. You also mentioned Aramaic Tanakh. Now you will be really tarred and feathered with the label 'teacher of false doctrines'. Hope you got a thick skin! They even promised to chase me around this board and obstruct what I have to say. Hope you fare better. It is all self evident for any but a first grader, but as Hitler said; "say if often enough and loud enough..."

[MorningGlory]

14 minutes ago, Jude1:3 said:

So let us once again review the mountain of Evidence that supports The Book of Enoch
 

 

You can review the Book of Enoch until The Second Coming but it will STILL be extrabiblical and NOT Scripture.  We are to follow the word of God, not what is outside the canon.  If you don't believe the Bible is the complete word of God, then what DO you believe in?  Btw, Wikipedia is not  recognized as a reliable research tool by most.

[MorningGlory]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

OH OH. You also mentioned Aramaic Tanakh. Now you will be really tarred and feathered with the label 'teacher of false doctrines'. Hope you got a thick skin! They even promised to chase me around this board and obstruct what I have to say. Hope you fare better. It is all self evident for any but a first grader, but as Hitler said; "say if often enough and loud enough..."

I assume you reported whoever 'they' may be, Justin.  Opinions are allowed at Worthy, even unbiblical ones.

[Guest shiloh357]

22 minutes ago, Jude1:3 said:

So let us once again review the mountain of Evidence that supports The Book of Enoch:

Nah, most of us who are Christians will just stick with the 66 books of the Bible.  That's where the truth lies and that's the book that God inspired.   That's the only source of truth for man that God inspired. 

The mark of a Christian is that they are loyal only to the Bible and are not distracted by Satan's attempts to get our eyes off on to other things like the book of Enoch.