ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[n2thelight]

One REALLY must understand the three heaven and earth ages.

[Marilyn C]

7 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

One REALLY must understand the three heaven and earth ages.

Hi n2thelight,

Just read your long post, now can you confirm this quote from scripture please?

`We were all happy in heaven which was on earth at that time. We did not have flesh bodies but only spiritual ones.`

We?????

Also what scripture tells you that the stars are people whereas v. 7 tells us that Satan had his angels, those he was over and who fell with him.

`And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.` (Rev. 12: 4)

Note: Worthy rulership in the third heaven is what I was pointing out as the first restoration.

Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi n2thelight,

Just read your long post, now can you confirm this quote from scripture please?

`We were all happy in heaven which was on earth at that time. We did not have flesh bodies but only spiritual ones.`

We?????

Also what scripture tells you that the stars are people whereas v. 7 tells us that Satan had his angels, those he was over and who fell with him.

`And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.` (Rev. 12: 4)

Note: Worthy rulership in the third heaven is what I was pointing out as the first restoration.

Marilyn.

Thx for reading it.

I take the"we" from Job

Job 38:1-7

V1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
V2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
V3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.

God is asking Job why he listens to his friends when they have no idea what they are talking about. God is saying to Job, If you know so much, I'm going to ask you some questions and lets see you answer them. All of mankind put together knows very little compared to the wisdom of God.

V4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
V5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
V6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

God is asking Job where he was when He created the earth. This is something that happened many millions of years ago. God is taking us back to creation and the first earth age.

V7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Not many people shouting for joy now a days. This is looking back in time when we all where happy in heaven and everything was going great. This happened before the rebellion of Satan.

 

God created the earth for us and it was perfect,when satan rebelled,He(God)destroyed it(earth).

Instead of God killing all who followed satan at that time,He came up with a plan,which was for all to be born of woman.

We just can't remember that time,as we now must make a choice of whom to follow.

One can read of all three ages in Peter

II Peter 3

V5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
V6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The word "perished" is Strong's 622 and means apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.

Some people desire to be ignorant to the fact that the earth is more than seven thousand years old when there is scientific proof which God's word aligns with. The dinosaur bones that are found toady are from the first earth age when dinosaurs walked the earth. Satan likes to play a lot of tricks but this is not one of them. Dinosaurs are talked about in God's word by God Himself in the book of Job. Read Job 40:15-24 and all of chapter 41 We were on the earth in our spiritual bodies in the first earth age with the dinosaurs. Because of the rebellion of Satan God destroyed fully that earth age with a flood. This is not talking about Noah's flood which happened in this earth age because it was not destroyed fully.

I Peter 3:20
V20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

V7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is talking about the earth age we live in now and looking forward to the Lord's day.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by n2thelight

[Marilyn C]

22 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

 

Hi n2thelight,

Now we are talking about the restoration and I said that Christ on His throne in the third heaven is the first rulership to be restored.

Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi n2thelight,

Now we are talking about the restoration and I said that Christ on His throne in the third heaven is the first rulership to be restored.

Marilyn.

My bad

However I don't feel Heaven needs to be restored,the only problem I see there is satan accusing the saints day and night and that soon will stop,as he shall be cast out.

Can you explain?

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Actually `qodesh,`is holy ones, and that can be angels or saints, so more scriptures are needed for confirmation. Jesus Himself said that angels came with Him, so that clears that up.

Marilyn.

BTW I do not read your long posts, and I wouldn`t think others do either. I suggest for better conversation that you just have one point and then do another post for your next point etc. Then we can reply to your points. (Just suggesting bro.) 

Shalom, Marilyn.

<Sigh.> Okay, I'll try to do better, if you want to shorten my post, simply reduce the verses down to their references. I don't like to do that myself because the Scriptures are more important than anything I have to say, but in a pinch, you can shorten my message and make it easier to see just what I had to say by doing that. Then, if you can't figure out what I'm driving at, you can always re-examine just that passage of Scripture. I'm only providing the passage for you, usually in its context (to show I'm not pulling it out and using it in a manner contrary to the context) and in full sentences. If you reduce the verses down to their references, you may need to expand them to see what I felt was important in the way I highlighted info.

Regarding "angels," I'll write more, but you cannot START with that as a point on which to build! "Angel" is a transliterated word from Greek (aggelos), and it simply means a "messenger." It doesn't always mean a "supernatural being." In fact, it OFTEN refers to HUMAN messengers! That, too, must be qualified by the context!

 

[Swords99]

9 hours ago, fixerupper said:

People like to prop themselves up by saying they are guided by the Spirit and that's why they have things right.  God can bless our efforts, but it's up to the individual to use a common sense method and approach.  God cannot enlighten the mind of a person who believes they already have things all figured out.  We must have an unbiased approach and willing to change our mind when the evidence is there to do so.

The early church relied on prophets and apostles to instruct and lead them. They also had the original text.  We should not discourage the use of resource books where people spent their life's work compling these lexicons so that we can understand the Word of God.  Every Christian should use these resources.

Hi fixxerupper, I don't have everything figured out. I'm still learning.  I totally agree with you that God can't enlightened a closed mind. We must allow the scriptures to teach us and not force our beliefs into the texts.

Of course we should use the resources available to us. They can be a great blessing. But we must use sober judgment on what we read and rely on. Do a google search on 'should Christians use lexicons and concordances' and you will get sites that explains some of the dangers of not choosing wisely. Lexicons only enables translation, not interpretation.

If we read 20 different books/commentators on the Book of Revelation, we're going to get a myriad of opinions on pre, mid and post trib. One is more likely to choose those authors that one agrees with because 'familiarity' makes sense. This will make it hard to see errors.

Isn't it more wise to see what the whole Bible says on it? We can look at Daniel and some of the other OT scriptures with Revelation and see that it's one unfolding prophecy.

We can understand the Bible. Context is important. Knowing who is writing, the audience, circumstances and why the author is writing to them. It does help to look up the Greek sometimes to get the fuller meaning.

The Holy Scriptures must be our final authority.

I do commend you for the time and effort you put in studying. God bless.

 

 

[Swords99]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Rapture is false

The one world government is next,satan coming pretending to Christ,is after that.

Christ will not come until after those two.

Only those who think they are in Christ can be deceived,as the rest of the world already belong to satan.

What is your evidence that the rapture is false?

[Swords99]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

They are elect when dealing with Romans 9-11. 

They are not the only elect but in speaking of the remnant that will be saved from the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are elect.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
(Rom 9:3-5)

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
(Rom 11:1-7)

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
(Rom 11:25-28)

Good post!

[fixerupper]

Marilyn said,

Quote

We need to look at Romans 11: 28 for there we see that Israel also has an election - one of God`s elect group.
Concerning the gospel they (Israel) are enemies for your sake, but concerning the ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.` (Rom. 11: 28)
Quite clear there bro, that God still has Israel as His elect as well as the Body of Christ.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.`(Rom. 11: 29)

You can look at Romans 11:28 but it does no good understanding the elect of Mathew 24:31.  Romans 11 has has no bearing how we should interpret the word EKLEKTOS in Mathew.  Rom. 11:28 is simply saying how even though Israel appears to be the enemy of Christ, they are still loved for the sake of their fathers election. It's basic common sense that Romans 11:28 is talking about Israel, but not the rapture or the elect of Mathew 24.  If God wanted Mathew to convey the message that ISREAL was the focus of Mathew 24:31 he would have used the same words in Mathew 24 as he did in Romans 11.  

The word "election"  (eklogē) is also used to describe CHRISTIANS too 4 out of 6 times, but that actually doesn't matter.  What does matter is that the word elect in Mathew 24:31 is ALWAYS used to describe Christians and NOT USED ONCE to describe Jews or Israel.

Romans 11:28 isn't talking about the 'elect' mentioned in Mathew 24, so it's bad hermeneutics and actually a fabrication to counter and cover up a contradiction. That contradiction being that the elect of Mathew 24 is Israel when 100% of the evidence says IT IS NOT.

The word 'eklogē' is used in Romans 11:28 (but not in Mathew 24).  It's used 6 times in the New Testament and FOUR of those times the word is used to describe CHRISTIANS!
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=election*+G1589&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
This is the word elect used in Mathew 24:31...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1588&t=KJV

Strong's definition....

picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.

____________________
Take a look at these verses where EKLEKTOS is used.  Every one of them implies Christians NOT ISRAEL.
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14

These are the kinds of things that make pre-trib a fabricated nightmare.  This issue is just ONE of many fabrications pre-tribbers have devised.  The reason for this fabrication is that in Mathew 24, Jesus clearly states that the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation.  So they've ALSO created another rapture and two returns of Christ.  It's an absolute shame that it's as widely accepted as it is.  Pre-trib is the most contradictory, fabricated, and deceitful false doctrine that has has ever entered the church and people still fall for it.

Edited June 22, 2017 by fixerupper