Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[fixerupper]

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Rev. 17:16 is the Key.......16 And the ten horns (Government) which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (Harlot), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The Governments (Statue of Daniel 2) have for 1000's of Years welcomed False Religions as a part of their TEAM, thus the Harlot Rode the Beast in verse 7, but now this Anti-Christ/Beast wants to be worshiped as a MAN-GOD, there is no place for Islam or any religion in his world, thus the 10 KINGS in league with the Beast, kill the Harlot. 

 

Statue of Daniel 2?  Why would governments 1,000 plus years old be part of an end-time vision.  It's counterproductive to good hermeneutics that some elements of an end-time vision be historical.

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They will worship this man as GOD, not such a far cry from what Atheists, some scientists, the Green movement, The Elitists do now, they worship MANKIND, its called Humanism and that's what they are teaching our kids in colleges all over today. So they will worship a Man as God.

Atheist worship nobody, scientist just do their job, the green movement...worship mankind???  Are you saying that's the religion of the beast?

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You are missing ONE ASPECT, the false Religions will be Judged and killed of by the Anti-Christ, but he isn't going to kill off those that worship and serve him, that's what the Plagues of God are for, to kill off Babylon (World Governments) and those that took the Mark of the Beast. (Final False Religion). 

I lost count how many things you're missing, and I don't believe you.  Burning the harlot wth fire isn't ALL false religions.  It's the religion of Islam, either Iran or Mecca gets nuked.

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The whole World man, that is Babylon, all those that partake of the Mark of the Beast hate God. Look around, your average Evolutionist/Scientist will be one of those Humanist worshipers, as will all Atheists, as will people like these famed Scientists and Debaters who profess there is no God. They are all over the world. just look at these GREEN, Climate Change people, they actually believe those lies. Look at the vast hate for all things Christian today, its like they have a phobia.

Babylon is Babylon, it's not the whole world.  Lets see, humanist worshippers, Atheist, scientist, evolutionist, the green movement,...
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF?  Oh, I remember, your mentors.
 

[fixerupper]

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You miss the whole point by arguing the same point. I know the Holy Spirit holds him (Anti-Christ) back. Thus when he stops holding him back what does the Holy Spirit do? He ALLOWS HIM to Come Forth.

That's not what Paul is saying.  Paul is saying is that an APOSTASY is holding him back.  Nothing in the text say anything about ALLOWING.  That was added!

[fixerupper]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

THIS is the Post you made is what I was specifically referring as UNBIBLICAL.  - You said Satan holds back the Anti-Christ. No where in the Bible does it say that. You are calling the Restrainer - Satan. IT is THE GOD ALMIGHTY that RESTRAINS SATAN  through the Holy Spirit.  It is the Holy Spirit that is the restrainer holding back evil , holding back the appearance of the Anti-Christ.  

You guys really need to red the text again.  An apostasy is what's holding him back.  The question is who or what restrains IT in verse 7. 

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Revelation man,

You're way off.

Maybe you should have noticed what Paul said,

Spoon feeding, seems to be a common thing around here.

Look at the simple progression of the passage...

V. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Prousia) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

V.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

BEFORE Paul says...

V. 7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It's either poor exegesis or outright fabrication to say the "church" withholdeth."  The grammar of the text shows that after Paul tells them that the parousia would NOT come 'unless' there comes FIRST an 'apostasy' AND the man of sin revealed, and then describes the man of sin in verse 4,

HE GOES ON TO SAY, "

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

TO SAY THE CHURCH OR HOLY SPIRIT IS WHAT'S WITHHOLDETH THE MAN OF SIN IS PURE FABRICATION.

The truth is it seems, you just do not understand the whole passage imho. Even though verse 3 never says [that day shall not come] in verse 3, but I agree that is what is being spoken of in verse 1. So Allow me to teach you my understanding of the passage. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {{ This is of course speaking about the Coming of the Lord to gather his Church and take them to Heaven with him, just like 1 Corinthians 15 says. }}

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {{ The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath. Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to fear (Be troubled) that they had missed the Gathering together unto the Lord (Rapture) and were somehow going to go through this period of Gods Wrath, or the Day of the Lord/Christ. LAMBS WRATH/GODS WRATH. In other words don't allow any mans words or letters deceive you, that the DAY OF THE LORD IS UPON YOU. Its a lie Paul is saying. }}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: [for that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (Apostisia means DEPARTURE) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {{ After telling the Thessalonians in verse 1 & 2 that they need not Fear being in the Day of the Lord or Gods Coming Wrath, Paul then tells them that EXCEPT there comes a Departure (of the Church/Gathering Together unto Christ) FIRST, and then the Anti-Christ is Revealed/Comes Forth, then THAT DAY CAN NOT COME !! What day is being spoken of? The Wrath of God. Paul is saying do not Fear the Wrath of God coming upon you. That CAN NOT HAPPEN, until; 1. The Church Departs and 2. The Anti-Christ shows up on the scene. Does this fit? OF COURSE. The Day of the Lord happens after the Rapture and the Anti-Christ coming onto the World Stage is what kicks off the 3.5 Years of Gods Wrath. NOTICE, he rules 42 Months which is 3.5 Years, they go hand in hand. So Paul is telling them to STOP WORRYING !! Its no going to happen until you (CHURCH) are Raptured and the Anti-Christ shows up, and you would know that so don't worry my Friends Paul is saying. }}

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {{ The Anti-Christ will claim to be God in the Temple of God. }}

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {{ Paul's already told them this before in person thus he is not as detailed in this letter as he might have been. }}

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {{ What WITHHOLDS? The Church being on Earth means the Anti-Christ and thus the Day of the Lord can not come until the CHURCH DEPARTS.  He is NOT ALLOWED, the Anti-Christ is being HELD BACK so to speak. }}

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {{ The Anti-Christ is not allowed to come forth by the Holy Spirit until the Church Departs. Then he is allowed to COME FORTH. }}

Now in an easier to understand Holman version, though they still get the APOSTASY PART WRONG. 

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (DEPARTING OF THE CHURCH)  comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, (CHURCH has to Depart First) so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 

This whole Falling Away is not even understandable. Nowhere in any of the passage is Faith spoken of. BUT....The Rapture is spoken of a few times in just 7 verses. The Church Departing is the Subject. The Rapture or Gathering together unto Christ before the Anti-Christ or Gods Wrath can come upon the World.

BIG SPOON HERE..............

Edited July 4, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Statue of Daniel 2?  Why would governments 1,000 plus years old be part of an end-time vision.  It's counterproductive to good hermeneutics that some elements of an end-time vision be historical.

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Because the BEAST is one, it has one body in Rev. and it is of Satan, just Like the Church is of Christ. You don't think you need to understand that? The Little Horn is END TIMES. Too many people imho, profess great knowledge of prophesy, thus we get hundreds of interpretations and only confusion. 

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Atheist worship nobody, scientist just do their job, the green movement...worship mankind???  Are you saying that's the religion of the beast?

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What I sense from you is an argumentative spirit at heart, if I said a Red Rose is Red you would say its blue. Atheists worship mankind, if you do not worship God you have to SERVE SOMEBODY who said that?  Scientists are not just doing their job they are propagandists. Like you would know if they were lying.  HUMANISM is the Religion of the Beast, if he desires a MAN to be worshiped as God.  The One World religion is right before your eyes and all you guys see is Islam. Or the Pope. 

This Anti-Christ's Religion will be Humanism, with the Environmental wackos, the Whale Lovers who attack humans for fishing, the Earth Worshipers, The Deviant Sex Worshipers, the Anything goes crowd (Do as thou Wilt), the Atheists, the Socialist, the God Haters etc. etc. The Church will be gone. Any deviant behavior will be normal to them, of course.

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I lost count how many things you're missing, and I don't believe you.  Burning the harlot wth fire isn't ALL false religions.  It's the religion of Islam, either Iran or Mecca gets nuked.

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You wish you really knew would be my guess.

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Babylon is Babylon, it's not the whole world.  Lets see, humanist worshippers, Atheist, scientist, evolutionist, the green movement,...
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF?  Oh, I remember, your mentors.
 

This kind of silliness is why I stopped replying to you, you need to grow up.  You can't get it and you probably never will until you quit with the barbs. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Sorry to tell you but the holy spirit would never allow someone to break grammar rules in scripture....

You will have to take that up with Him.  He is the Author.

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You wish you really knew would be my guess.

Ha ha! Someone here still has some humor left.

[Issachar2007]

If you're committed to the pre-trib rapture view, you should read this blog posting on "The most misunderstood verse in the Bible."  Read the whole post.

http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/the-return-of-jesus/misunderstood-bible-verse/#more-3859

Once you start looking honestly at many of the pre-trib "proof texts" you will soon discover John Darby wasn't very good at Biblical hermeneutics.  

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The truth is it seems, you just do not understand the whole passage imho. Even though verse 3 never says [that day shall not come] in verse 3, but I agree that is what is being spoken of in verse 1. So Allow me to teach you my understanding of the passage. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {{ This is of course speaking about the Coming of the Lord to gather his Church and take them to Heaven with him, just like 1 Corinthians 15 says. }}

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {{ The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath. Paul is telling the Thessalonians not to fear (Be troubled) that they had missed the Gathering together unto the Lord (Rapture) and were somehow going to go through this period of Gods Wrath, or the Day of the Lord/Christ. LAMBS WRATH/GODS WRATH. In other words don't allow any mans words or letters deceive you, that the SAY OF THE LORD IS UPON YOU. Its a lie Paul is saying. }}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: [for that day shall not come], except there come a falling away (Apostisia means DEPARTURE) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {{ After telling the Thessalonians in verse 1&2 that the need not Fear being in the Day of the Lord or Gods Coming Wrath, Paul then tells them that EXCEPT there comes a Departure (of the Church/Gathering Together unto Christ) FIRST, and then the Anti-Christ is Revealed/Comes Forth, then THAT DAY CAN NOT COME !! What day is being spoken of? The Wrath of God. Paul is saying do not Fear the Wrath of God coming upin you. That CAN NOT HAPPEN, until: 1. The Church Departs and 2. The Anti-Christ shows up on the scene. Does this fit? OF COURSE. The Day of the Lord happen after the Rapture and the Anti-Christ coming onto the World Stage is what kicks off the 3.5 Years of Gods Wrath. NOTCE, he rules 42 Months which is 3.5 Years, they go hand in hand. So Paul is telling them to STOP WORRYING !! Its no going to happen until you (CHURCH) are Raptured and the Anti-Christ shows up, and you would know that. }}

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. {{ The Anti-Christ will claim to be God in the Temple. }}

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {{ Paul's already told them this before in person. }}

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {{ What WITHHOLDS? The Church being on Earth means the Anti-Christ and thus the Day of the Lord can not come until the CHURCH DEPARTS. }}

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {{ The Anti-Christ is not allowed to come forth by the Holy Spirit until the Church Departs. Then he is allowed to COME FORTH. }}

Now in an easier to understand Holman version, though they still get the APOSTASY PART WRONG. 

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (DEPARTING OF THE CHURCH)  comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, (CHURCH has to Depart First) so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 

This whole Falling Away is not even understandable. Nowhere in any of the passage is Faith spoke of. BUT....The Rapture is spoken of a few times in just 7 verses. The Church Departing is the Subject. Rapture or Gathering together unto Christ before the Anti-Christ or Gods Wrath can come upon the World.

BIG SPOON HERE..............

I agree with this post. Perhaps I would have worded it a little differently, but same idea.

They imagined, due perhaps to a forged letter, that the Day of the Lord had come, and they were IN IT.

Paul is explaining how anyone can know for sure that the DAY has come and they are in it: if they see the man of sin revealed, they anyone can know the DAY has started and they are in it.

With this knowledge, they then knew the Day had NOT come and they were not in it, so they were still waiting for the rapture.

How amazing, some today imagine it is the DAY.  The day will not come until the church has departed.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

here we go, only pretribs have the holy spirit now.

Stop changing what was written.  NO ONE has said this. I guess it went right over your head.