Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Harlot is KILLED OFF in Chapter 6, that's why you have 2 Billion Murders. You serve the BEAST or DIE.

This is complete myth, without any possible scripture behind it. Where did you come up with this figure? Did you just ad lib it?

John does not even get introduced to the harlot until chapter 17, and you have her appearing in chapter 6. And then you create murders out of thin air.  This is just human imagination gone wild. I hope you know: teachers are to be held to a higher standard.

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Daniel 8 is not about Antiochus, he is not called the Prince of princes, that is Jesus. You can tell me another 1000 times but I will not change what I know to be a truth just to listen to a person, why would I. 

Good question: WHY would you pull verses out of their context? Daniel very clearly said this was about the end of THEIR kingdom. That would be the end of the dynasties of the four generals that took over after Alexander's death. All these dynasties were overcome by Rome before Jesus was born. But you wish to ignore this context and imagine this is talking about our future.

I wonder at the way you read these verses! The "Prince of Princes" in this verse is speaking of the pre-incarnate Christ. OF COURSE Antiochus was going against HIM, for Antiochus was going against God's people.

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, the 10 Nations/Horns are of European Origin, just like Daniel 7 says.

Please, take us to Daniel 7 and show us how you arrive at Europe.

[Pudgenik]

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you wish to be left behind and face the Beast, that is up to you. Perhaps God will allow it.

But I tell you the truth: God has set no appointments for me with His wrath. I am not going to be here.

I would say no one wants to be left here. Of course we want to be with God. 

The philosophy of the pre trib isn't cut and dry. It is only a guess or theory. But it has been preached for years as absolute truth.

Personally, I find the teaching selfish. Or at least the churches I've been invited to, and others sent to. Those who believe in it are only worried about themselves. 

Where is the brothers keeper in that thinking. The Catholics are in the same boat, with some new teachings that are being spred. 

In both cases, I'm very concerned.

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is a VISION, John is being shown that the Lamb, Jesus was our Sacrifice and was thus Worthy to open the Seals. These Visions were FUTURE EVENTS to when John was shown them. You are way overthinking this imho, John said no man could be found to open the Seals in Heaven or on Earth, well that's true, Jesus is God, the Lamb of God, and when the Elder said STOP CRYING John look over there AT THE THRONE, that is where Jesus was, just where he was supposed to be. 

I would say you are UNDER-THINKING this. We have to go by what is said! You cannot refute what John told us:

Jesus was simply NOT IN the throne room in chapter 4. That is the first question He asked me: WHY? Your theories give no answer as to why.
Next, Jesus saw absolutely NOT FOUND in that first search John watched. that is proven by what he wrote, "no man was found." As Jesus put it to me: "that search ended in failure." Again, your theory does not answer this question, or as to WHY the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4.

Any you totally miss the fact John has shown us: that Jesus SUDDENLY APPEARED in the throne room where He was not a moment before.  Sorry, but I am going to go with What Jesus showed me.

Can you come up with any possible reason God would have had to context the seals with this? I wanted to know. It wanted to know why God thought it necessary to show us that john wept, and that he wept much. He showed me HIS intent in these scriptures. If you don't believe it, that is on you, not me. I say that every word He spoke FITS this scripture.

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Where was Jesus at? In the MIDST OF THE THRONE, just where has has been since ascending to the Father. 

You are overlooking all the verses that came before this. Neither do you have any explanation: He was NOT THERE in chapter 4. NO MAN WAS FOUND in that first search. The Holy Spirit was there, meaning, not yet sent down.  We cannot pull verses out of context: the context here is the ENTIRE chapters 4 & 5. They tells us a story, but you are just not accepting it. Of course not, because your entire end time theory would come crashing down.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

it is very Clear the Seals are opened at the MIDWAY point of the Final 7 Year Period. We see that by reading Scriptures, so that can never change.

It is amazing: what seems clear to you is nonsense to me. John did not put the seals at the midway point! They come before John even opens the 70th week. It seems then, you don't read the way I do.  Could it be those pesky preconceived glasses again?

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

IMHO, Chapters 4&5 are easy to interpret them, IF we do not overthink them, look back and read both quickly without much thought and what do we see? Chapter 4 we see God is Holy and Just in all things and he receives the praises of the whole of Heaven. In Chapter 5 we see Jesus is WORTHY, and the whole of Heavens sings his Praises just as they did to God in the previous chapter, this time they sing Worthy is the Lamb.

I can assure you, that is not the way Jesus sees them!

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Chapter 4 we see God is Holy and Just in all things and he receives the praises of the whole of Heaven.

The main points Jesus wants us to see is a throne room where Jesus is ABSENT. And a throne room where the Holy Spirit is there, when we should think He would be on earth.  There is only ONE explanation as to why Jesus was not there and the Holy Spirit was: it speaks of the only time ever that Jesus was NOT there: when He was on the earth.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

In Chapter 5 we see Jesus is WORTHY

Certainly He is worthy, but of WHAT? Of overcoming death and becoming worthy to open the seals (in context). But in particular, we see the very moment Jesus ascended back into heaven. Again, chapters 4 & 5 tell us a STORY, and it is a timing story.   WHY would we need to know that John wept much? Jesus TOLD me: "It shows timing." And "It also shows the movement of time." Think about this: the first words Jesus spoke about chapters 4 & 5 was about TIMING. You should take this to heart. These two chapters take us from some time while He was on the earth, to the time He rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven. And God's purpose of including this in His book was to show TIMING.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

the Holy Spirit has always been on earth. Mary was told not to touch him because he had an offering to bring unto the Father, human hands would have defiled that offering. You seem to have, imho, invented a time-line on very a thin set of beliefs that all other scriptures point against

I did not write it: God did. It is HIS book. The Holy Spirit is GOD. But He is the part of God that is everwhere. Yet, what do we read?

John 16: ⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

WHERE did Jesus Go? Back to heaven. It would seem then that the Holy Spirit would be sent from heaven.

Rev. 5: ⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Jesus was NOT there - then suddenly He WAS there: and in this verse where He suddenly arrives, the Holy Spirit is sent down.  Notice He is desribed here as seven horns and seven eyes. He is all powerful and all seeing.

Rev. 4: ⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Here the Holy Spirit is, just before He is sent down.

I did not invent this time line: it has been here written down for 2000 years. We KNOW when He came: it was the day of Pentecost. Where did He come from? John tells us He was in heaven. That is good enough for me.

The point you are missing is, WHEN was He sent down? Put that time to Rev. 5, for John shows us Him being sent down. That time FITS with "no man found" as in Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind, and be found. And it fits with Jesus not being in the throne room. We have THREE WITNESSES here giving us the timing as around 32 AD. Yet, you allow these three witnesses to go right over your head.

By the way, if Jesus was speaking to you - my guess is you would listen!

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So what you are saying is that you will continue to propagate your doctrine that most commentator refutes.  And you will do it by pulling verses out of their context.  Most people understand this chapter is about Antiochus. Since you believe otherwise, your theories will be off. You wrote, " The Scriptures CAN NOT LIE....I use scriptures to back up my every point. " In this case, your backing is pulled out of context, so you deductions are off.

Readers, this is what happens when someone pulls verses OUT OF CONTEXT;

For starters, most commentators and much of Christendom agrees with me, the person being spoken of in Daniel 8 is the Anti-Christ, not Antiochus. There are many facts that show this to be true, but your reasons head up your logical thinking, you have that backwards. I can of course prove this and have many times, the question is will you admit my facts are facts.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Gabriel Interprets the Vision

¹⁵ Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.

¹⁸ Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. ¹⁹ And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. ²⁰ The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ And the male goat is the kingdom^[b] of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. ²² As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

²³ “And in the latter time of their kingdom,

In the latter part of their reign
At the end of their rule
And at the latter end of their kingdom
In the latter period of their rule
Near the end of their kingdoms,
Toward the end of their rule
And at the end of their empire

KJV-Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. {{{ YOU Left this Nugget out, that's not the way we should work with SCRIPTURES Brother. Gabriel clearly tells Daniel that this VISION he has seen will be at the END TIMES....He didn't say in 300 years, he said at the END TIMES !! So Strike one, don't let pride keep you from seeing the Truth. }}}

(I'll use your bible above here..) 19“Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. {{{ This is fairly straightforward,I don't see how anyone can get this wrong, Indignation is God's anger at Sin. God's bowls of Wrath have to be JUSTLY FULL before He can take action. Just look at all the Nations that God was going to chase out of Canaan, he told Abraham that he had to go be a stranger in a strange land for 400 years, until HIS WRATH had come full against all of the Tribes in Canaan. Likewise, the LATTER TIME OF INDIGNATION is Gods Bowls of Wrath filling up at man-kinds sins. For at the APPOINTED TIME the end shall be. Antiochus did not live in the END TIME, and he did not DESTROY BY PEACE, and he did not battle JESUS CHRIST (Prince of princes SEE THE CAPITAL P ? Its right there in front of you brother). Gabriel Clearly tells Daniel this vision is about the END TIMES. }}}

23 “And in the latter time of their kingdom, {{{ What does this even mean? The Evidence above shows Gabriel to be speaking about the END TIMES. You have decided that a Greek Kingdom is around no more, even though we clearly see Greece is on the map. Now the clue to understanding this is in Daniel 7........Verse 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 

Verse 11 says the Beast is cast into hell as son as he is defeated BUT Verse 12 says as concerning the rest of the Beasts, THEIR LIVES were prolonged for a Season and a Time, meaning though they lost their Dominion, the Kingdoms would linger on, UNLIKE the Little Horn Beast who is cast into hell right away. Thus Rome is still around, as is Persia via Iran as is OF COURSE.........Greece. So the Latter Time of THEIR Kingdom means this Anti-Christ is born IN GREECE. }}}

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
²⁴ His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

Lets me number these to make it easier to identify.

1. Who are TRANSGRESSORS? Sinners...when Sinners have filled up my Bowls of Wrath.
2. Anti-Christ.
3. Of course he has a stout look.
4. Understands Riddles and Conundrums.
5. His power will be of Dark Forces.
6. The Anti-Christ murders at least 2 Billion people and conquers the world.
7. You can't conquer the world without thriving.
8. The Anti-Christ will conquer mighty Kingdoms and Jerusalem. Antiochus was not as powerful as his father, much less Alexander the Great. The above is about the Anti-Christ.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHAT is "their" kingdom? What must this pronoun refer back to? Easy: "Four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation [Alexander the Great's empire] So let's be specific:

The kingdom of Cassander, The kingdom of Lysimachus, The kingdom of Seleucus, and The kingdom of Ptolemy.

Let's make no mistake here: Daniel is speaking of the latter part of THESE FOUR kingdoms. So lets establish when each one ended.

The kingdom of Cassander:.......146 BC taken over by Rome.
The kingdom of Lysimachus:....281 Defeated by Seleucus and Thrace became part of the Seleucus dynasty.
The kingdom of Seleucus:..........63 BC
and The kingdom of Ptolemy. :.30 BC - overcome by Rome.

This is the CONTEXT. Therefore, anyone coming out of these kingdoms has to refer to someone BEFORE 30 BC.

As explained above, this is speaking of the END TIME when SINS COME FULL, not the end to a Kingdom that has not ended. Greece is still a Kingdom, you are having to stretch everything to FIT when it doesn't fit. The Angel was VERY CLEAR.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On verses 23:

Pulpit Commentary: Antiochus

I can find commentary that will fit any idea someone comes up with. So I usually only use for references.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My point is, if we leave this in context, which is the 4 divisions of Alexander the great, all four dynasties disappeared and was swallowed up by Rome.  There is not one translation I could find that varied: all said THEIR kingdom, referring to the four from Alexander.

Therefore, to use any verses from this chapter to prove something about the Antichrist is simply not good exegesis.

Many people see Antiochus as a TYPE of the Antichrist. I agree. The coming Antichrist will repeat many of the things Antiochus did.

Greece has not disappeared and Daniel 7 said that the Beasts would all live on for a period of time, even Babylon did, for awhile, Alexander the Great died there. But Rome, Persia and Greece are still around, no matter how toothless they are, the Anti-Christ is born in Greece.  

I'll just add this last verse in here to fill out our discussion on this subject. 

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus); but he shall be broken without hand (Holy Spirit).

{{{ The Anti-Christ stands in the Temple Paul says and declares he IS GOD (Magnify himself).....and BY PEACE he will destroy many, in Daniel 9:27 we are told he reaches a Seven Year Agreement with MANY !! Then we have him fighting against the Prince of princes, which is Jesus Christ, that is why it is capitalized. We understand Jesus shows up on the Mt. of Olives and defeats the Anti-Christ and his minions with the SWORD OF HIS SPIRIT (Rev. 19) and in Daniel 2 we are told the Rock destroys the Statue WITHOUT HANDS, so it very, very clear, this is Jesus Christ, the Prince of princes destroying this ANTI-CHRIST that is born in Greece and comes to power in the European Union. And he does it by SPEAKING IT.......Just like he CREATED THE UNIVERSE }}}

This is not Antiochus, who is but a weak nothing burger in the history of man-kind. This is the ANTI-CHRIST, and its about the END TIMES, just as Gabriel stated it was. When you have to start fudging Scriptures to make it fit, its time to reevaluate.

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Revelation Man

[fixerupper]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you wish to be left behind and face the Beast, that is up to you. Perhaps God will allow it.

But I tell you the truth: God has set no appointments for me with His wrath. I am not going to be here.

That's the Perry Stone mentality of it, "if you don't believe in the pre-trib rapture you're not going in it."  That's easily debunked since God is no respecter of persons esp. his elect.  I think it's just foolish of you Lamad to infer that stuff.

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't see the bible saying this at all brother, Jesus was right where he was supposed to be

OK, WHERE IS HE?

² ...behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

God the FAther is there. 24 elders are there. The four beasts are there. 

Jesus is not there. I did not notice this. I am slow. I don't think John just overlooked Him. JESUS HIMSELF brought this to my attention.  He did not show up in the throne room until the 5th chapter.

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This vision in Heaven is FUTURE to Johns life. So, imho, you went off the trail by accepting this over 100's of scriptures that tell us all of Revelation is FUTURE EVENTS.

Sorry, but you are living in dream land again with this post. John was told to write history, present and future things. This part of His vision was history. You KNOW that when Jesus ascended it was before 95 AD.  Surely much of Revelation is future even to us today. But this revelation was given in 95 AD. The church was less than a hundred years old. When you get to heaven, you will find that the seals  - all but 6 & 7 are history. In fact, many people have realized a parallel between the first seals and the first part of the Olivet discourse - the very discourse where Jesus said, "the end is not yet," showing us he was still talking about church age stuff.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Anti-Christ comes forth at the MIDWAY POINT, of course you have to move all of that around to make this fit. I am not being overtly critical, we can all go down bad roads, we just have to catch ourselves and rely on scriptures to bring us back to reality. Satan does not stop trying to deceive us.

If the antichrist comes forth at the Midway point (and he does), why do you teach that the first seal is the antichrist? It cannot be both. Indeed, it is NOT both: the 1st seal is not the antichrist, never has been and never will be: it is the CHURCH sent out around 32 AD - you know, right when Jesus ascended into heaven: that same year! So if you claim the first seal as the antichrist, it is YOU moving things all around to make them fit. My end time scenario leaves Revelation exactly as written. Any correct theory will.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Seals are a FUTURE EVENT. All the evidence points to that. Chapter 5 is a FUTURE EVENT, thus there need not be 2000 years in there.

You can imagine they are future, but you will find out differently. You still amazing me: John's saw this vision in 95 AD, and it was about events when Jesus ascended, when He got the book and began breaking the seals, and you imagine it is FUTURE against every word of these chapters. Sorry, but Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down around 32 AD. No amount of disagreement with change that fact.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

you have allowed yourself to be taken down a wrong road all because of one or two verses in Chapter 5.

It is the right road, and it is because Jesus Christ, the head of the church, spent 2 months with me teaching me. (I was slow). And it is not only two verses, it is the entire two chapters. Every verse must stay in its context. And the context is 32 AD.

 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

A White Horse, even in secular terminology always means a CONQUEROR. Thus the Anti-Christ will go forth to Conquer, of course, and Jesus Christ will come forth to Conquer Evil. You see, mixing up when the Seals are forces you to see this as Jesus even though it isn't. I might add this Seals in the first century stuff has been going around for many, many years, so this has to be tradition of men teaching, you must have heard it somewhere else, even if subconsciously. 

Sorry, but wrong again: JESUS taught me this. I heard His voice and His words.

WHO OWNS this world currently? Have you forgotten that Satan is the god of this world? Do you imagine that he would just step aside and allow the gospel to go freely? That is dreamland! People DIE taking the gospel to new places. It has always been. Satan faught Paul tooth and nail, so to speak, but GRACE was sufficient, and Paul conquered and overcame. OF COURSE the church would have to conquer and overcome to get the gospel out.

I suspect the seals for the church age has been around since John wrote, for it is TRUTH. But how long as the theory that the first seal is the antichrist? I doubt if you can find anything in the first century.

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Seal 5, another reason people get confused, these ARE NOT the Saints who died from Jesus' death to the Rapture of the Church, these are the Saints who died during the Tribulation period

What a strange theory, when John does not open the 70th week until chapter 8. Not to mention the first 4 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  See where imagination will lead people? We must stay close to the text as written. Jesus got that scroll into His hands in 32 AD. That is what John showed us.

But, since you insist, use a little common sense: all the Jews knew about Daniel's 70th week. And my guess is, they knew it was a 7 year period of time. So please tell us, if they were 70th week martyrs, why would then even bother to cry out and ask how long? They would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. Sorry, your theory is not scriptural nor is it even common sense.

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

Remember, one passage in Rev. 5 has thrown your whole understanding down a winding road, one that has been around a long while I might add. Satan can lead us that way even as Christians, I should know, been there, done that, long ago.

You are mistaken: because you have not understand chapter 5, all your theories are off. The church is now waiting on seal 6. Common sense should tell you this: it is JUDGMENT and it will come right after the rapture, as Paul told us. You imagine judgment beginning when the church was sent out! No, this is the age of GRACE and judgment will not come until the age of GRACE ends.  Preconceived glasses can really be thick.

 

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

The End of the 70th Week is the Beginning of Jesus' 1000 year reign. Not the beginning of chapters 17 and 18.The truth is you can't answer why chapters 17 and 18 come after Armageddon. But I can, THEY DON'T, that happens starting in Chapter 6, just like  have stated. 

You can be wrong if you choose to be. Jesus spoke: I heard His voice: He told me that I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked, and then told me HOW to find it. You can be sure, the 70th week is marked by 7's. You want it to start with the first seal. Jesus told me it will start with a 7. I discovered it was the 7th seal. And it will END with a 7: the 7th vial.

Rev 16:17  Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. And a mighty shout came from the throne in the Temple, saying, "It is finished!"

You imagine something far different than the intent of the Author. It is the 70th week that has finished.  NOT ARMAGEDDON! Only your imagination puts Armageddon here. It is only the end of the week, not the end of the war.
 

Of course I can answer why chapters 17 & 18 come after chapter 16! God WROTE IT THAT WAY!  ;-)

The truth is, Jerusalem still stands after the 70th week has finished, and the Beast is probably still there.  She has been hit with a terrible earthquake, but many are still alive in the city.  I see no need to attempt to rearrange John's book. It is correct as written. How silly to have a theory that requires rearranging, when one can find a theory that fits it as written. ArmageddonYou only  comes in chapter 19, which will probably be a month after.

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

Well you just proved you know very little about Revelation with the Seals Argument brother. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order, that is very apparent. You reply but don't answer the question, how can Rev. 16 END IT WITH ARMAGEDDON but yet Rev. 17 and 18 be real time events?  It is IMPOSSIBLE, but its only possible that Rev. 17 and 18 happened before Rev. 16 ended. When you can solve that riddle get back with me. 

You only say that because you don't agree. And that is OK. You can be wrong. It is NOT very apparent that Revelation is not in timing order. It is quite apparent to me that it is in perfect order. The impossibility is that the battle of ARmageddon is hidden somewhere in chapter 16!  It is only the GATHERING of the armies. The battle cannot come until Jesus comes, and that is LATER.

I used to think that chapters 17 and 18 were a close up view of the destruction caused by the earthquake. I changed my mind. 

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

When you can solve that riddle get back with me. 

Chapter 17 shows the TEN kings that will throw in with the Beast for "one hour." That probably represents the small time that these two chapters will take up: maybe a month, maybe less. It will take some time to get the armies of the world moved to Israel.

 

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

It was Just my Imagination.......Running away with me......Rev. 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. THE Seventh Vial is then poured out and the Evil Minions are defeated.

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN: There is NO CHRIST in your theory! He is not to be found in this chapter. I know why: He does not come until chapter 19, some time in the FUTURE.  Now, read very close: "he gathered them together..." Do you see a battle? No, there cannot be because Jesus does not get here until two chapters later.

 

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 19 spans the whole Seven Year Period.

AGain myth: there is not even ONE HINT of such a theory. It seems you pull theories as if out of a hat - probably a proverbial hat.

Do you just not read? Perhaps you were going from memory as I do at times. 

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

² For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

After what things? Of course, after all the previous chapter things. But notice, this is AFTER the whore has been judged, so AFTER chapters 17 & 18. See how simple this is if we just read it as it is written?

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

As per the Old Testament Saints, they are the Bride of God, the Church is the Bride of Jesus. So all of that goes out the door.

No, not out the door. They are DEAD DEAD DEAD and will need to be raised from the dead, before the marriage. That was my point. You made a good sidestep.

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

You evidently have your timing off, Jerusalem is not where Armageddon happens. Of course you actually think Jesus is battling against Jerusalem I GUESS since you think she is the Harlot which is just not the case. The Earthquake happens in Jerusalem. That's all the destruction you get from the Seventh Vial in Jerusalem. Nowhere does it say Jerusalem is burned. And it won't be. By this time what you see as happening to Jerusalem, the Harlot (Which it is not) has already happened in Rev. 6, the Harlot (False Religion) has already been Destroyed. Jerusalem is captured by the Beast at the onset, via the Seals at the MIDWAY POINT.

Here you go, back to chapter 6. We are in chapters 17-19! The battle will probably only take seconds! But Jesus will have to be there at Armageddon, in Bozra, and light down in Jerusalem.  I don't know the order. It is not written.
When you keep jumping back and forth as here jumping back to chapter 6, it is useless to continue.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You did not stop and you did not even think: You think you know, when in fact you don't: so you just repeat and repeat what is fantasy.

It is very simple: if the seals are God's wrath, then it is God's wrath making live Christians into dead Christians. That is just silly. There simply is NO WRATH OF GOD in sending the church out to spread the gospel: seal 1. There has been no wrath of God upon the earth during the church age: seals 2, 3 and 4. Those are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the gospel. You did notice, they come AFTER the Church is sent out in seal 1?  I hope you noticed, John did not get to the "Day of His wrath" until the 6th seal.

 

You mean the "Christians" who became Christians after the Rapture? God allowed Satan to make Martyrs of the Disciples, God allowed Jesus to die. You are looking at death as a BAD THING per se, it is not really death, as you well know, but its life, the scripture says in Revelation, Blessed is anyone who is Martyred from this point forward. The people who were not ready to be Raptured can not change Gods plans. Jesus would never be able to pen the Seals if you had your way, people getting saved every day, God would just have to postpone His plans. If you do not want to go through this TIME OF TROUBLE, be ready when the Bridegroom shouts. 

The Church is IN HEAVEN, only the REMNANT of the Church is on Earth, why have you not figured that out yet? I have stated it a few times. The Church dies, they don't spread the Gospel. The Angels do that, and the two-witnesses. The Church will not be on Earth when Gods Wrath Starts. The Anti-Christ and Gods Wrath both start with the FIRST SEAL BEING OPENED. That leaves 3.5 Years of Wrath. 

The Church is not the First Seal. I do not know where you got this stuff at brother. I am not mocking you, I understand we go down these paths in life, and sometimes we veer off course, as I have. This is way out there stuff. THINK 42 Months, 1260 Days, a Time, times and a 1/2 time and Middle of the Week.......All of these are exactly 3.5 years for a REASON, everything goes down in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK. The Wrath of God is 3.5 Years, the Anti-Christs rule is 3.5 Years, Israel Flees for 3.5 Years, the two-witnesses preach for 3.5 years. Its all interlocking, god has given us these time-frames for a reason.

The Day of the Lord starts with the FIRST SEAL and ends with the SEVENTH VIAL.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

That's the Perry Stone mentality of it, "if you don't believe in the pre-trib rapture you're not going in it."  That's easily debunked since God is no respecter of persons esp. his elect.  I think it's just foolish of you Lamad to infer that stuff.

Please tell me then what YOU think this verse means:

Heb. 9: ²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This tells me that if people are not looking for Him, they will not get to SEE him. Not to mention the many times He told us to WATCH.  Perhaps Perry Stone has scripture behind what he says. Personally, I would not take an chances: I would be WATCHING and expecting His coming any day now. I hope you are doing the same.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

But what if you missed something , what if you are wrong. Are you prepared for the alternative

IMHO a blind 99 year old man should be able to see the Rapture in he Bible, I truly do not even know why people still argue the issue. It's not even a salient point for me to discuss for the most part. 

[iamlamad]

27 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

KJV-Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. {{{ YOU Left this Nugget out, that's not the way we should work with SCRIPTURES Brother. Gabriel clearly tells Daniel that this VISION he has seen will be at the END TIMES....He didn't say in 300 years, he said at the END TIMES !! So Strike one, don't let pride keep you from seeing the Truth. }}}

This "end times" MUST BE qualified by the context. How many times must I tell you, you cannot pull verses out of their context? WHICH end? THEIR END. He TOLD you that.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom,..

It is very clear, the end HE the angel is speaking of is the end of THEIR KINGDOM. How you can miss this amazes me.

How amazing: immediately after speaking about "the end" his next words area about Media and Persia. And if we went on, Alexander and then the four generals after him.

Edited July 7, 2017 by iamlamad