Seals and their purpose

[Pudgenik]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

The seals which are in Revelation 6 to 8  are the end time judgements from God.

They are, as well as Revelations, written in a way to be revealed in God's sweet time

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

I agree the white is peace. But there are more clues than just white. 

The horseman has a start, the city is Jerusalem. (The heart of God).

In the Old Testament,  the white horse goes west. 

The horseman has a bow with arrows. 

Everything has to be included when interpreting the seals and Revelations. Everything has a purpose.

I agree. Every word has its intended purpose. Yes, the city is Jerusalem, for that is where the church began. the horse speaks of warfare. The white speaks of righteousness. The bow with no arrow speaks of warfare also, but not physical war: our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. I believe Strong's missed it big time. He said "toxon" in this passage meant a simple ribbon! No, it is where we get our word for toxin! In the Greek Septuagint "toxon" was used may times for a bow that shoots arrows.  Sadly, this is its only use in the New Testament.  In English "bow" can indeed mean a bow that shoots arrows and a simply knot in a ribbon. I doubt very seriously that the word for bow in Greek - that is the bow that shoots arrows, can also mean a simply ribbon! 

Most people who wish to identify this horse and rider completely ignore the context, which is the entire vision of chapters 4 & 5.  As you said, every word has its purpose, and in these two chapters John clearly established the time as when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, most people simply ignore this. Jesus ascended around 32 AD so this sets the time for this first seal.  Anyone who imagines this is the Beast of chapter 13 has pulled it totally out of its context.

Good post.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The seals which are in Revelation 6 to 8  are the end time judgements from God.

Missmuffet, if you stop and think about what you wrote, you are saying that the martyrs of seal 5 are caused by God's judgment, as if God caused those martyrs to die! No no! The seals are NOT "judgment." You cannot find that word anywhere in the seals. john does not use this word "judgment" until chapter 14.  Neither is there any hint of judgment in seal 1.

In fact, you have totally ignored the context for the first seals, which is found in chapters 4 & 5.  Notice in chapter 5 that John got to see, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. So would you say that judgment began in 32 AD? I wouldn't! that was the infant church which was just sent out to make disciples of all nations. In fact, the church age martyrs of the 5th seal are told that judgment would not come until the very last martyr is killed. We are still counting, so it is still not time for judgment. If you notice, judgment begins at the 6th seal, still in our future.

[Pudgenik]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I agree. Every word has its intended purpose. Yes, the city is Jerusalem, for that is where the church began. the horse speaks of warfare. The white speaks of righteousness. The bow with no arrow speaks of warfare also, but not physical war: our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. I believe Strong's missed it big time. He said "toxon" in this passage meant a simple ribbon! No, it is where we get our word for toxin! In the Greek Septuagint "toxon" was used may times for a bow that shoots arrows.  Sadly, this is its only use in the New Testament.  In English "bow" can indeed mean a bow that shoots arrows and a simply knot in a ribbon. I doubt very seriously that the word for bow in Greek - that is the bow that shoots arrows, can also mean a simply ribbon! 

Most people who wish to identify this horse and rider completely ignore the context, which is the entire vision of chapters 4 & 5.  As you said, every word has its purpose, and in these two chapters John clearly established the time as when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, most people simply ignore this. Jesus ascended around 32 AD so this sets the time for this first seal.  Anyone who imagines this is the Beast of chapter 13 has pulled it totally out of its context.

Good post.

I'm sure this will come under fire. My personal thought is more. I believe that the white horse is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal. All the entities involed use white for peace, all the entities involved have a bow and arrows in thier national symbols. Egypt, USA, and Isreal. 

The first seal never says he conquers. It only says, " he goes out as a conquerer, as if to conquer.

The peace treaty has never been finished. Parts of it, yes. Not all.

[Pudgenik]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I agree. Every word has its intended purpose. Yes, the city is Jerusalem, for that is where the church began. the horse speaks of warfare. The white speaks of righteousness. The bow with no arrow speaks of warfare also, but not physical war: our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. I believe Strong's missed it big time. He said "toxon" in this passage meant a simple ribbon! No, it is where we get our word for toxin! In the Greek Septuagint "toxon" was used may times for a bow that shoots arrows.  Sadly, this is its only use in the New Testament.  In English "bow" can indeed mean a bow that shoots arrows and a simply knot in a ribbon. I doubt very seriously that the word for bow in Greek - that is the bow that shoots arrows, can also mean a simply ribbon! 

Most people who wish to identify this horse and rider completely ignore the context, which is the entire vision of chapters 4 & 5.  As you said, every word has its purpose, and in these two chapters John clearly established the time as when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, most people simply ignore this. Jesus ascended around 32 AD so this sets the time for this first seal.  Anyone who imagines this is the Beast of chapter 13 has pulled it totally out of its context.

Good post.

I would never say (and neither should you) that because one doesn't agree with me that makes them a beast of ch 13.

Remember when the Apostles encountered a man who was preaching, but not of thier group. "If he is for us, then he isn't against us".

Just because someone has a different view, doesn't mean they are against what is most important. 

All this stuff we wrestle with here, really isn't that important. If I have it wrong, or you have it wrong. It won't change the final outcome of where we are going. 

All that really matters is loving God with your heart. If you love Him, then all the other issues are irrelevant.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

And you say that why? It is only because I don't agree with your theories. Sorry my friend, but I choose to believe what is written. So far you are just ignoring the context of the seals.

Its quite evident why I say it to most everyone but you. Because I am correct on what these passages mean and you are incorrect. Whether we agree or not has no part on it. If I was wrong and found out I would say so, but this foe one is elementary type stuff and two the Holy Spirit can not be wrong. No theories friendo.

 

6 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

I agree the white is peace. But there are more clues than just white. 

 

But that is technically wrong, even though I get your gist. He does come to power via PEACE, thus Daniel 8:25 is correct. But this opening of the First Seal post dates that first 3.5 Year period of Peace. The verse right there in Rev. 6 says what is going on. White Horses throughout history have signified Conquerors, so it no coincident that the Anti-Christ is shown on a White Horse as a Conqueror and that Jesus the ultimate Conqueror is show on a White Horse, though both are shown in different fashions. The Anti-Christ wears a single Crown of a Wreath (TWINE), whereas Jesus wears Many Crowns of Gold. Jesus has the Sword (of the Holy Spirit) and the Anti-Christ has a bow whereas he make War with men. 

Rev. 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse (CONQUEROR): and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 

Notice it is not about PEACE HERE, its about Conquering, the White Horse has always symbolized a Conquering conqueror. Then the Red Horse takes away the PEACE, so the Seals are Conquering, Takes away Peace (War), Famine, and Death.....5th Seal is the Dead Martyrs. 

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

So the PEACE is the first 3.5 Years of Jacobs Troubles. The Last 3.5 Years is the Wrath of God. Jesus opening the Seals is the Wrath of the Lamb. The Holy Spirits Wrath is the Two-witnesses praying down Plagues on man-kind. And the Fathers Wrath is the Vials being poured out. Al are Gods Wrath, of course. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Its quite evident why I say it to most everyone but you. Because I am correct on what these passages mean and you are incorrect. Whether we agree or not has no part on it. If I was wrong and found out I would say so, but this foe one is elementary type stuff and two the Holy Spirit can not be wrong. No theories friendo.

I will give you this much: you have a vivid imagination! I understand, you say this because I disagree with you and tell you you are wrong. But sorry, you are mistaken. Worse yet, you don't even know that you are mistaken. When someone ignores the context, they frequently end up with nonsense.  All you have is theories. Sorry, but it is truth. When we get to that point in time, you will know.

Edited July 15, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

Just because someone has a different view, doesn't mean they are against what is most important. 

All this stuff we wrestle with here, really isn't that important. If I have it wrong, or you have it wrong. It won't change the final outcome of where we are going. 

All that really matters is loving God with your heart. If you love Him, then all the other issues are irrelevant.

Very good and very true, but with one caveat: if people are not expecting His coming FOR His church, as in postribbers - not looking for His coming, I fear they will be left behind. In that case, beliefs really do matter. I hope I am wrong. But the last verse in Hebrews 9 says He is coming for those that are looking for Him.

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Missmuffet, if you stop and think about what you wrote, you are saying that the martyrs of seal 5 are caused by God's judgment, as if God caused those martyrs to die! No no! The seals are NOT "judgment." You cannot find that word anywhere in the seals. john does not use this word "judgment" until chapter 14.  Neither is there any hint of judgment in seal 1.

 

You don't understand it in fill it seems. God Rapturing His Church to Heaven, then allowing Evil to befall this evil world is NOT JUDGMENT on those that Refused the Mark of the Beast and laid down their lives for Christ, anymore than the Disciples becoming Martyrs was a Judgment on them. God allowed the BEAST to come forth and the BEAST took innocent lives, therefore those people will be in Heaven. By your line of thinking God could never allow the Anti-Christ to come forth because he would kill some Christians who became Christians after the Rapture. That makes no sense whatsoever. God gave us all a chance to escape the coming evil that will befall the world, if we are not ready when the Master calls then we must REPENT and be prepared to lay down our life for Jesus name, something we should have been prepared to do at all times anyway. Jesus warned us TIME AND AGAIN, to be Ready, be Ready, be Ready !! 

God is not going to change His timing because some people tarried and was not ready at the Rapture. Rev. 12:17 clearly tells us what is going to happen. God will protect Israel in the Wilderness but we see that the Dragon then goes after the REMNANT of the Church. We must be willing to lay our lives down, Gods Wrath against man-kind is not going to kill His people, the Wicked One is, but he can not kill their souls, just like when he murdered the Disciples he did not kill their Souls. In your theory, the Lamb can never RELEASE the Anti-Christ because there are a few Christians on the Earth who became Christians after the Rapture, and thus the Anti-Christ could never be Released. The truth is, if you miss the Rapture, you will have to pay a price, but your soul can still be saved. BUT THE LAMBS WRATH at the World is coming. 

He releases the White Horse which is the Anti-Christ Dictator who goes forth to Conquer, he releases the Red Horse which is the Anti-Christ taking Peace from the World or bringing forth WAR. He releases the Black Horse of Famine and the Pale Green Horse of Death and Disease. 

Then in the 5th Seal he releases the Evidence against the Anti-Christ and his murderous ways. Thus the Anger level rises, as it does throughout the 21 Judgment process. The 6th Seal is a Great Earthquake, the Sun becoming dark and the moon turning blood red, and Stars falling from Heaven, be it stars are Satan cast down to Earth. 

The the Seven Trumpets are Greater Judgment, and the Seven Vials are even more intense. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In fact, you have totally ignored the context for the first seals, which is found in chapters 4 & 5.  Notice in chapter 5 that John got to see, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. So would you say that judgment began in 32 AD? I wouldn't! that was the infant church which was just sent out to make disciples of all nations. In fact, the church age martyrs of the 5th seal are told that judgment would not come until the very last martyr is killed. We are still counting, so it is still not time for judgment. If you notice, judgment begins at the 6th seal, still in our future.

All this has zero basis as per a foundation goes. 

[Revelation Man]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will give you this much: you have a vivid imagination! I understand, you say this because I disagree with you and tell you you are wrong. But sorry, you are mistaken. Worse yet, you don't even know that you are mistaken. When someone ignores the context, they frequently end up with nonsense.  All you have is theories. Sorry, but it is truth. When we get to that point in time, you will know.

Literally NO ONE agree with you man. Everyone literally agrees with me, but I have an imagination. YIKES.