Where is the final authority?

[spiderman1917]

7 hours ago, Giller said:

The Catholic teachings actually go against the bible's way of salvation.

They are saved by their works.

"The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved."

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation

 

[spiderman1917]

The Church doesn't teach that we are saved by works but if a person came to that conclusion, they have scripture to support it:

Romans 2:6

"He will render to each one according to his works:"

[BK1110]

I don't know what this particular church is teaching, but traditional catholic churches do not teach SOLA FIDE, that is they don't teach that we are saved through grace by faith alone. It's the last word that is the sticking point, and is the very thing that led to the reformation.

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

They do believe you need grace by faith...but they also believe that you need works for salvation, and this leads to their belief in purgatory and a bunch of other nonsense.

If you want some really good teaching on the matter, look up R.C. Sproul's lectures and sermons and writings on Sola Fide, plenty of them readily available on Youtube.

[KiwiChristian]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:01 PM, spiderman1917 said:

"The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved."

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation

 

CANON 9:  "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified...let him be accursed"

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."

Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial, - except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."

Canon 24:  "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 30:  "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Canon 33:  "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

[spiderman1917]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:38 AM, BK1110 said:

I don't know what this particular church is teaching, but traditional catholic churches do not teach SOLA FIDE, that is they don't teach that we are saved through grace by faith alone. It's the last word that is the sticking point, and is the very thing that led to the reformation.

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

They do believe you need grace by faith...but they also believe that you need works for salvation, and this leads to their belief in purgatory and a bunch of other nonsense.

If you want some really good teaching on the matter, look up R.C. Sproul's lectures and sermons and writings on Sola Fide, plenty of them readily available on Youtube.

The Bible doesn't teach SOLA FIDE either.  Read Matthew 25.

Also Romans 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works

[BK1110]

Without knowing which part of that chapter you're referring to, it is faith that saves, but true saving faith is changing faith. "Faith" isn't simply head knowledge; true faith changes a person's outlook, desires, and actions. It spurs us toward works, creates a desire to do works...but the works do not save, only the faith does. A tree that is alive will produce fruit, and one that is dead will not. But a tree is not alive because it produces fruit, it produces fruit because it is alive.

[Wayne222]

On Thursday, September 07, 2017 at 4:11 AM, shiloh357 said:

Who was God speaking to when He gave the Law?

What Jesus said is that he didn't come to destroy the law but to "fulfill it.   The word fulfill in the Greek means to bring to fullest expression.   Jesus is the embodiment of the law which served no purpose except to point to Jesus.  The Sabbath, the Festivals the Sacrifices were all meant as sign posts to Jesus.

The commandments pertaining to hygiene, and the dietary laws, as such were meant to separate Israel from the surrounding pagan cultures.   Not all laws in the OT were given to all people for all time.
 

Christians are not commanded to keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws.  

Yes, His Word.

Jesus made clear that He is the One the law pointed to.   Jesus is our Sabbath.  He is our rest. 

Man cannot live up to the righteousness demanded by the law, since the law demands 100% perfection.   So the righteousness we have was given to us by virtue of Jesus death on the cross and we are justified (declared righteous) by God by virtue of our faith in Christ.   His righteousness, His merit is imputed to us.  

Good post very clear.