Limited Atonement

[enoob57]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:54 PM, Robert William said:

You have mistranslated those scriptures, the "us" and the "we" are the predestined elect, NOT all humans.

Your functioning in a false light where you place the onus upon God when God has placed the onus on man ... human responsibility is replete from the Genesis thru Revelation. It isn't a work it is being...

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:09 AM, missmuffet said:

Limited atonement deals with Calvinism. I do not support Calvinism.

You are correct, I do not support Calvinism either.  Limited Atonement means Jesus saving work on the cross was just enough to save the predestined elect.  You and I see this as utter nonsense.  Jesus death on the cross and subsequent resurrection was enough to save ALL mankind who freely accepted that they could not save themselves.  Jesus is our free will choice and our salvation, by God's grace through our faith in Him.

[Robert William]

On 11/19/2017 at 7:52 AM, ytLiJC said:

 

let's remember the words of St John the Apostle who says that fear is the thing that makes us not love one or another of our neighbors and that whoever fears to work for overall salvation in God and Jesus is not perfected in love (1 John 4:18)

just type in google "salvation" --> enter, and then "salvation for all men" --> enter, and see the big difference in the search results - how many clerics and worshiper have feared to work for overall salvation

Galatians 5:22-26 (NASB) "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.",

1 John 3:18 (NASB) "Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."

how can we ever imagine that God is the system Administrator/Provider of life only for some souls?!

John 3:16-18 (AKJV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

so do all religious worshipers believe (i.e. found their faiths) on Him?!, do all of them believe in His Name (i.e. in His Righteousness)?!, what do we work for as religious worshipers and spiritual servants, for overall salvation or destruction?!

and do we reprove/rebuke those who commit unrighteousness in the faith, IOW, who bring abomination of desolation in the holy place?!

Blessings

You have started on a false premise preaching that God is obligated to save everybody, and you have completely bypassed the fall of man.

We are all born in sin.

None is good, just as Jesus told the rich young ruler, but God.
The depravity of man.
Jer. 17:9; John 5:42; 6:44; 15:4, 5; Rom. 3:9-18 3 :23, 7:18, 23, 24; 8:7, 8; I Cor. 2:14; II Cor. 7:1; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18; II Tim. 3:2-4; Tit. 1:16; Heb. 11:6.
3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is as poison of a serpent, As a deaf asp shutting its ear, 5 Which hearkeneth not to the voice of whisperers, A charmer of charms most skilful.
Psalms 58:2-5 (YLT)

5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. 6 Lo, truth Thou hast desired in the inward parts, And in the hidden part Wisdom Thou causest me to know.

Psalms 51:5-6 (YLT)

[ytLiJC]

10 minutes ago, Robert William said:

You have started on a false premise preaching that God is obligated to save everybody, and you have completely bypassed the fall of man.

We are all born in sin.

None is good, just as Jesus told the rich young ruler, but God.
The depravity of man.
Jer. 17:9; John 5:42; 6:44; 15:4, 5; Rom. 3:9-18 3 :23, 7:18, 23, 24; 8:7, 8; I Cor. 2:14; II Cor. 7:1; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18; II Tim. 3:2-4; Tit. 1:16; Heb. 11:6.
3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is as poison of a serpent, As a deaf asp shutting its ear, 5 Which hearkeneth not to the voice of whisperers, A charmer of charms most skilful.
Psalms 58:2-5 (YLT)

5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. 6 Lo, truth Thou hast desired in the inward parts, And in the hidden part Wisdom Thou causest me to know.

Psalms 51:5-6 (YLT)

 

if the One Who is really the true God is the system Administrator and Provider of life for the whole infinite universe, how can we say that His purpose is not to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life?! - of course i don't say He is forced, though He has a duty, to do it; or if He is powerful/mighty to save all souls, what might prevent Him from doing it?! - we can only say that He can afford it, but we are the ones who can't (without Him)

1 Timothy 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. prayers, intercessions, pleadings and blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for salvation and life provision for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(also: in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become/be good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(also: the (be)souled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

it has been easiest and cheapest to shift the blame/responsibility onto others, but how do we do His will if we only accuse people of being sinners i.e. without working for overall salvation in Him?!, because how have doctors cured so many patients?!

the matter at hand in the last two passages you quoted above is people being spiritually begotten to the "world", not to the true God, because sin, in essence, is spiritual lawlessness/wickedness manifesting at worst in the form of ostensibly sacred religion(s), and if a person is converted or converts to such a religion, they may thus turn out to be lawless/wicked spiritual servants/workers...

i.e. the fact that people are not (quite) perfect, doesn't mean we should only accuse them of being sinners, because if we don't work for overall salvation in the true God, we are not (much) better than many other sinners - for example, would so many people honor Jesus Christ if He only said some terrible words without saving thousands of people most effectively in practice?!

we have to gain insight into things of God with vigor and universal scope, which is not possible only by reading

Blessings

[Robert William]

15 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

if the One Who is really the true God is the system Administrator and Provider of life for the whole infinite universe, how can we say that His purpose is not to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life?! - of course i don't say He is forced, though He has a duty, to do it; or if He is powerful/mighty to save all souls, what might prevent Him from doing it?! - we can only say that He can afford it, but we are the ones who can't (without Him)

1 Timothy 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. prayers, intercessions, pleadings and blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for salvation and life provision for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(also: in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become/be good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(also: the (be)souled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

it has been easiest and cheapest to shift the blame/responsibility onto others, but how do we do His will if we only accuse people of being sinners i.e. without working for overall salvation in Him?!, because how have doctors cured so many patients?!

the matter at hand in the last two passages you quoted above is people being spiritually begotten to the "world", not to the true God, because sin, in essence, is spiritual lawlessness/wickedness manifesting at worst in the form of ostensibly sacred religion(s), and if a person is converted or converts to such a religion, they may thus turn out to be lawless/wicked spiritual servants/workers...

i.e. the fact that people are not (quite) perfect, doesn't mean we should only accuse them of being sinners, because if we don't work for overall salvation in the true God, we are not (much) better than many other sinners - for example, would so many people honor Jesus Christ if He only said some terrible words without saving thousands of people most effectively in practice?!

we have to gain insight into things of God with vigor and universal scope, which is not possible only by reading

Blessings

Just because God is willing that all be saved does not mean the He will save all.

[ytLiJC]

6 hours ago, Robert William said:

Just because God is willing that all be saved does not mean the He will save all.

 

how do you know?!

what if He saves all souls but judges those who committed spiritual unrighteousness as well as the ones who caused evil to their neighbor determining them to suffer accordingly at least in next/future eternities?

let's say we can't be sure or guarantee that He will do something or not, but we can at least be careful not to sin before Him knowing that He is powerful/mighty to save everybody as well as to judge sinners

Blessings

Edited November 22, 2017 by ytLiJC

[Robert William]

5 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

how do you know?!

what if He saves all souls but judges those who committed spiritual unrighteousness as well as the ones who caused evil to their neighbor determining them to suffer accordingly at least in next/future eternities?

let's say we can't be sure or guarantee that He will do something or not, but we can at least be careful not to sin before Him knowing that He is powerful/mighty to save everybody as well as to judge sinners

Blessings

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[ytLiJC]

16 hours ago, Robert William said:

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

very good passages, but do we understand them correctly?!

what if each of us save oneself but don't work for overall salvation in the true God, and as a result of mass service to the law of egoism, which is the law of the "darkness", many suffer and die in the hands of the wicked one?!, because why did the Lord, Jesus, come in the world - to please Himself or to save humankind?!

Romans 15:1-9 (NHEB) "Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each one of us please his neighbor for that which is good, to be building him up. For even Christ did not please himself. But, as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me." For whatever things were written before were written for our instruction, that through patience and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Now the God of patience and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus, that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God. Now I say that Christ has been made a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given to the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "therefore I will give praise to you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.""

because if it was felicitous/possible for God to cause there to be egoistic salvation to abundant and eternal life, wouldn't He do it?!, but He knows that egoism is the main characteristic of the "darkness" and that it leads to "death", which is why He says "love your neighbor even more than yourself", which is the most important Commandment of God

James 2:8 (NIV) "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.",

Galatians 5:14 (ISV) "For the whole Law is summarized in a single statement: "You must love your neighbor as yourself."",

1 Corinthians 10:23-33 (NIV) "I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others... Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

and in Scripture there is even something like a scientific explanation for why we should work for overall salvation in the true Lord God

Matthew 7:12 (NLT) "Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets."

because if we don't work for salvation for our neighbor/cohabitant in this cycle of eternity, nor will others work for our salvation in next/future cycles of eternity, because there is an eternal circle of existence, positions of and events with the souls - an inevitable circle of eternal cycles, or, as it is called in the biblical scriptures, "eternal judgment" (Hebrews 6:2)...

Blessings

Edited November 23, 2017 by ytLiJC

[TickledPinkinChristWoot!]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:11 PM, Robert William said:

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

How then does John 3:16 reconcile its message with John 17:9?

[Robert William]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:46 PM, TickledPinkinChristWoot! said:

How then does John 3:16 reconcile its message with John 17:9?

Simple, all does not mean all all the time.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Steve_S
Removed video. Please post videos in the appropriate video forum.