" Founded A Christian Nation "

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, justadisciple said:

Worldly and political nations will fight worldly and political wars.  But w.e are not of this world, if we were, we would take up arms and fight... but we are not of this world... we have been born again into God's Kingdom of love and truth... a spiritual kingdom.

But if we follow that logic, then we should not engage in anything that is "of" this world. We should not own property, hold down jobs, pay taxes...etc.  You  have a very flawed idea what it means to be not "of" this world.

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I do not believe that military service is compatible with Christianity.  However, the movie Hacksaw Ridge showed a possible exception to that rule.

Why is it not compatible with Christianity?

 

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I do not condemn people who wish to defend themselves and their families physically.  However, I do not believe that using violence as a means to achieve that defense is a valid Christian response in harmony with the teachings and example of Jesus.

But would YOU defend your family?  How is defending one's family out of step with the teachings Jesus??   How does one defend one's family  from a violent attacker, but do so in a non-violent way, successfully?

How is letting a criminal kill your family "loving your enemy?"  In that instance does "loving my enemy" supersede, or overrule loving one's family?

[justadisciple]

 

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  13 minutes ago, justadisciple said:

Worldly and political nations will fight worldly and political wars.  But w.e are not of this world, if we were, we would take up arms and fight... but we are not of this world... we have been born again into God's Kingdom of love and truth... a spiritual kingdom.

But if we follow that logic, then we should not engage in anything that is "of" this world. We should not own property, hold down jobs, pay taxes...etc.  You  have a very flawed idea what it means to be not "of" this world.

 

 

It was Jesus who said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kindgom were of this world, my followers would have taken up arms to fight and prevent me being handed over... but my kingdom is not of this world."

As for owning personal private property and "holding down jobs", I think we should question that as well, given the teachings of Jesus and the example of the early Church.  But we are commanded to pay taxes when they are due, so there is no contradiction between paying taxes and Christianity, like there is with going to war using carnal weapons.

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But would YOU defend your family?  How is defending one's family out of step with the teachings Jesus??   How does one defend one's family  from a violent attacker, but do so in a non-violent way, successfully?

I would defend my family without resorting to violence.  Such a defense could include locking doors or running away. My and my family's understanding of "success" may be very different to yours. 

Jesus dying on the cross doesn't seem very successful, in physical terms.  Neither does the fact that pretty much all of the apostles died as martyrs and did not fight to defend themselves. Nor for the countless others who have died as martyrs and laid down their lives for Christ and others.  All of them look like failures in the eyes of the world, but they are a success in God's eyes, because they fought a spirtual war, not a carnal one.

The sad thing about trying to protect our earthly lives is that it is an illusion.  You cannot protect your life nor your family's life.  Thinking you can is deception.  You can build the strongest walls, implement security measures and amass all the weapons you like, but at the end of the day you and your family will die, be it from a desease, a car accident or a heart attack.  Our only true security comes from doing God's will.

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How is letting a criminal kill your family "loving your enemy?"  In that instance does "loving my enemy" supersede, or overrule loving one's family?

I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family. But please consider that God himself at least temporarily put loving his enemies over loving his own family (Son) so that we, his enemies, could become part of his family.

We do not overcome evil with more evil.  We overcome evil with good.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

51 minutes ago, justadisciple said:

It was Jesus who said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kindgom were of this world, my followers would have taken up arms to fight and prevent me being handed over... but my kingdom is not of this world."

But that is not really speaking to this issue.  Jesus was talking to Pilate and Jesus had a mission to redeem the world from sin, which is why Jesus, in His sovereignty did not allow Himself to be rescued by angels or men.  It was His intention to go to the cross, so that really doesn't apply here.

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As for owning personal private property and "holding down jobs", I think we should question that as well, given the teachings of Jesus and the example of the early Church. 

So you would go so far as to day that having job and providing a home for a family is somehow out of sync with Jesus teachings as well?   Seriously?  

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But we are commanded to pay taxes when they are due, so there is no contradiction between paying taxes and Christianity, like there is with going to war using carnal weapons.

So, how do you obey the Lord and pay taxes if holding down a job is somehow out sync and disobedient to Jesus' teachings?   I mean, if you obey Jesus and have nothing in this world, then can't obey the Lord and pay taxes.

And what do live on if you don't have job?

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I would defend my family without resorting to violence.  Such a defense could include locking doors or running away. My and my family's understanding of "success" may be very different to yours. 

But when the criminal either breaks the door down or captures you, you would be forced to either defend your family or let them die.   Would you let your children die in order to "love your enemy?"    Loving your family would have to be discarded so that you could love your enemy?

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Jesus dying on the cross doesn't seem very successful, in physical terms.  Neither does the fact that pretty much all of the apostles died as martyrs and did not fight to defend themselves. Nor for the countless others who have died as martyrs and laid down their lives for Christ and others.  All of them look like failures in the eyes of the world, but they are a success in God's eyes, because they fought a spirtual war, not a carnal one.

The differences are that Jesus died because He wanted to.   It was His mission to die.   Martyrs die as result of persecution.   We're not talking about perseuction, so you are conflating issues.

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The sad thing about trying to protect our earthly lives is that it is an illusion.  You cannot protect your life nor your family's life.  Thinking you can is deception.  You can build the strongest walls, implement security measures and amass all the weapons you like, but at the end of the day you and your family will die, be it from a desease, a car accident or a heart attack.  Our only true security comes from doing God's will.

All of die, but that is beside the point.   A criminal assaults your family, your kids and you are willing to let them die, is the bottom line.  It is nonsense to argue that we don't need to defend our families 'cause we're all going to die some day anyway.  That is not biblical, not Christian and frankly is irresponsible.

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I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family. But please consider that God himself at least temporarily put loving his enemies over loving his own family (Son) so that we, his enemies, could become part of his family.

Oh please.... That is just completely lame.   God gave us His Son to be our sin offering.   Jesus didn't die because God loved His enemies more than Jesus.  Jesus is not the paternal Son of God.   He is the Son by divine rank in the Godhead and He died to redeem us from sin and it was His will to do so.   Your comparison is simply out of sync with Scripture.

Anyone who would let a criminal murder their children because of a sloppy, misguided misapplication of Scripture is an irresponsible parent and doesn't deserve to even have children.

 

We do not overcome evil with more evil.  We overcome evil with good.

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

But would YOU defend your family?  How is defending one's family out of step with the teachings Jesus??   How does one defend one's family  from a violent attacker, but do so in a non-violent way, successfully?

Interesting, I have thought about it and it actually is very hard. I believe I could do nothing to defend myself or my family, but to trust in Him.

"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two." - Matthew 5:39-41

 

I cannot imagine Jesus while He was on here picking up a sword to harm those who wanted to kill Him. He trusted in the Father 100%. 

"So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.
Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way." - Luke 4:28-30

 

I am not saying it is easy, but who told us it would be?!

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." - Matthew 10:37

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

Interesting, I have thought about it and it actually is very hard. I believe I could do nothing to defend myself or my family, but to trust in Him.

So if someone were bringing harm to your family, you would just step back and "trust" God by letting them be harmed or killed?

"

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But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two." - Matthew 5:39-41

You are completely misapplying that passage.   That does not mean we are let evil men murder, rape and pillage.  That was part of the sermon on the mount and Jesus was addressing a completely different issue, namely the false teachings of the Rabbis about taking revenge against others.     He was not saying we should let murderers and rapists have their way with our families.

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I cannot imagine Jesus while He was on here picking up a sword to harm those who wanted to kill Him. He trusted in the Father 100%. 

But Jesus came to earth to die and to give His life in death to pay our sin penalty.  You cannot make that an application for how to respond to criminal activity you are completely conflating how we respond to persecution vs. how we respond to criminal activity.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by shiloh357

[justadisciple]

Well, it is clear we see things very differently.  I honestly cannot see how Jesus' teachings and his example (or the rest of the New Testament for that matter) can lead someone to take up arms and kill another person in the name of self defense and then somehow try to teach that this is the correct Christian response to violence, and that Christians who believe otherwise have no clue regarding what the Scriptures teach.

_Your position is mostly based on an emotional, earthly argument like: "you would let your family die, and that's unloving and nonsense."  

I can understand how that is nonsense from a worldly perspective, but not from a Christian perspective.  It is the foolishness of the cross, losing your life to gain it rather than losing it by trying to save it.  But man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes.  

Explain to me how you can read the entire New Testament and come out thinking that what God wants is for us to use carnal weapons to defend ourselves and our families. I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion if you did not already have a strong prejudice towards those issues.

In a normal discussion, I could present Scriptures to show how Jesus teaches us to overcome evil through doing good, not by responding with violence. And yet if I quote "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" you say, he didn't mean it for all situations and it doesn't apply if our families are in danger.  I quote "my kingdom is not of this world, and that is why my followers do not take up arms" and you say it doesn't apply because Jesus wanted to go to the cross.  I talk about Christian martyrs, and you say it's different because it is persecution (though I suspect you would condone using weapons in self defense during persecution as well).  If I were to quote Romans 12 about not avenging ourselves but overcoming evil with good, I am sure you would say that doesn't apply either. 

It seems you are determined to rule out every Scripture and historical testimony that speaks against Christians using violence, while at the same time saying that I am the one out of sync with the Scriptures.

I can appreciate that turning the other cheek and allowing people to slaughter us like lambs is not easy and challenges us in a very deep and fundamental way.  As I said, I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family.  But if you cannot even acknowledge that my position is at least a reasonable one in light of what Jesus and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches, then there is not much point in continuing with the discussion, let alone discussing other sensitive issues like secular jobs, private ownership and other things that most modern day churches assume should be the norm.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, justadisciple said:

Well, it is clear we see things very differently.  I honestly cannot see how Jesus' teachings and his example (or the rest of the New Testament for that matter) can lead someone to take up arms and kill another person in the name of self defense and then somehow try to teach that this is the correct Christian response to violence, and that Christians who believe otherwise have no clue regarding what the Scriptures teach._

No one said that Jesus' teachings actively lead anyone to take up arms.  That is not my argument.   My contention is that taking up arms does not violate any of Jesus' teachings.   Jesus never addressed self-defense, so there is no doctrine that can be violated by Christians resorting to self-defense to preserve their own lives.

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Your position is mostly based on an emotional, earthly argument like: "you would let your family die, and that's unloving and nonsense."  

I can understand how that is nonsense from a worldly perspective, but not from a Christian perspective.  It is the foolishness of the cross, losing your life to gain it rather than losing it by trying to save it.  But man's wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes.  

 

Actually, from a Christian prospective, parents are to be providers and caretakers of their children.  That is their responsibility.  To actively fail to provide defense, to choose NOT to defend one's children from harm is irresponsible.  My position is not from emotion, but from basic biblical morality. Parents are to provide their children with clothing, food, medical care, shelter, all of the basic needs of life and includes protecting children from harm and danger.    To even suggest that such is not the case is what I am calling nonsense and irresponsible. 

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Explain to me how you can read the entire New Testament and come out thinking that what God wants is for us to use carnal weapons to defend ourselves and our families. I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion if you did not already have a strong prejudice towards those issues.

There is nothing in the Bible that teaches against it.  If God were against self-defense of one's life or one's family, one would find teaching against it present in Scripture.   I can support my position from understanding the godly behavioral paradigm that exists in Scripture as it relates to how a man should care for his family.   The principles that are present in Scripture about caring for a family can be used t shed light on the issues not directly addressed.  

For example.  Child molestation is not anywhere mentioned in the Bible.   Neither is spousal abuse.   But we can deduce from the biblical moral paradigm that such things are a sin.     So if God wants to provide for our families in every other area of concern such as food, shelter, clothing, education, biblical instruction, health care, then it follows that protecting our families from harm, even  if it means having to stand up and fight against  a murderer or rapist is part of that paradigm. 

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In a normal discussion, I could present Scriptures to show how Jesus teaches us to overcome evil through doing good, not by responding with violence. 

In order to do that, you would have to show from Scripture that self defense is "evil" that needs to be overcome.  You would have to produce Scripture that actively states that any kind of self-defense of family is prohibited by God.  You would ALSO have to show from Scripture that ALL violence is condemned by God.

 

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And yet if I quote "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" you say, he didn't mean it for all situations and it doesn't apply if our families are in danger.  I quote "my kingdom is not of this world, and that is why my followers do not take up arms" and you say it doesn't apply because Jesus wanted to go to the cross.  I talk about Christian martyrs, and you say it's different because it is persecution (though I suspect you would condone using weapons in self defense during persecution as well).  If I were to quote Romans 12 about not avenging ourselves but overcoming evil with good, I am sure you would say that doesn't apply either. 

My responses are meant to show you that your interpretations are shallow and do not actually fit the context of the passage under discussion.   You rip verses out of context, ignore their actual purpose and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree in order to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say.    If someone treated YOUR words that way, I bet you would complain.   The Bible stresses non-violence in respect to persecution, that we are not repay evil with evil.   If someone damages my property on purpose, I am not allowed by Scripture to run over to his house and damage his property in revenge.   If he gossips about me at work, I am not permitted by Scripture to return the favor by starting Gossip about him.

You are conflating the issues of persecution and criminal activity and you are misusing the Bible to address an issue it doesn't address at all. 

 

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It seems you are determined to rule out every Scripture and historical testimony that speaks against Christians using violence, while at the same time saying that I am the one out of sync with the Scriptures.

The Bible never speaks against Christians using violence at all.   It does not condemn defending one's family from danger.  

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I can appreciate that turning the other cheek and allowing people to slaughter us like lambs is not easy and challenges us in a very deep and fundamental way.

It's not about it not being easy.  It is about twisting and perverting Scripture to claim that God expects us to allow others to slaughter us.  That is a fleshly and very carnal approach to the Bible.

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  As I said, I do not condemn you for wanting to protect yourself and your family.  But if you cannot even acknowledge that my position is at least a reasonable one in light of what Jesus and the rest of the New Testament actually teaches, then there is not much point in continuing with the discussion, let alone discussing other sensitive issues like secular jobs, private ownership and other things that most modern day churches assume should be the norm.

Well then there is no reason to continue because your position simply is out of sync with Scripture.  Pacifism is a secular concept, not a biblical concept.   It is ironic that you use a concept that is "of" this world to pretend that you are living in a manner that is not of this world.   Your entire argument, in that regard is self-defeating and internally and intellectually inconsistent with itself.

[HarvestLabourer]

How I defend my family. I get Jesus to do it.

The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face:
they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways. 
Deuteronomy 28:7

Of course, I have to do what He asks too.

~~~`
I tried to think of a Christian nation.
How about the Vatican? It is officially a country.
Some might say it too Catholic to be called Christian.  


Praise Jesus
Paul

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

So if someone were bringing harm to your family, you would just step back and "trust" God by letting them be harmed or killed?

I would not be in such situation unless God allowed it to happen anyway. And if He knows how I would react then He would send what is needed for me to stay alive on this Earth.

 

Again, I'm not saying it would be easy... But if I or my family die we will go to the Lord. I cannot say the same for the evil person.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

I would not be in such situation unless God allowed it to happen anyway. And if He knows how I would react then He would send what is needed for me to stay alive on this Earth

Yeah, that isn't faith; it's called presumption.   Just because God allows something to happen, doesn't mean it is His will that it happen.  God allows a lot of things that are against his will.

Any parent that would just stand back and let their children be murdered because of an irresponsible and sloppy interpretation of Scripture doesn't deserve to have children and is a lousy, ungodly parent.

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Again, I'm not saying it would be easy... But if I or my family die we will go to the Lord. I cannot say the same for the evil person.

It's not only not easy, your approach is not biblical.