When is the Sabbath?

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

Just now, other one said:

keep in mind that we have struggled with this subject for many years here and many of us are sensitive to it.  as you can see with Yowm

 

Yep I'm used to that sensitivity re this subject that is why I remind people like Yowm to stick to the OP as their sensitivity is usually because they don't read or understand the information given but just jump to conclusions that this is a Saturday Sunday debate or have the wrong understanding of the lunar Sabbath or  don't understand the difference between the ancient and modern Hebrew calendars and also how the Julian calendar has nothing to do with the lunar Sabbath. etc .etc.  

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On 11/27/2017 at 6:43 AM, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

I have re-read the thread and want to try and put straight a few things. 

There are two Jewish calendars the ancient one that was used up to the diaspora in 70 AD which was then gradually lost to history due to the reasons I gave in the OP .i.e. the fact the Jews could no longer visually sight the new (waxing crescent) moon from Jerusalem from 135 AD after the Simon Bar Kokbha revolt and also because the vast majority of Jews were then living out side of Israel in the Roman empire and beyond and most of them ended up being forced by Constantine in 325 AD to worship on Saturday on the new Julian Calendar's 7 day rolling week, and eventually most simply ended up using the new Julian calendar with its separate 7 day rolling week as a matter of expediency, and as said the Julian Calendar's new 7 day rolling week began on Friday 1st January 45 BC and therefore can not be used to calculate when the Sabbath is. 

Then there is the new modern Jewish calendar created by Hillel in 359 AD in response to the above situation which uses the Mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle which allows all the Jews to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live but Hillel dropped any notion of trying to get the Jews to go back to using the ancient lunar Sabbath held on every 7th day from new moon day i.e. days 8, 15, 22, & 29 (from new moon day) for all the reasons above and as explained in the OP. 

However since the year 2000 a Jewish American called Nehemia Gordon began to coordinate Aviv barley searches and new crescent moon sightings from Jerusalem. He is now the co-founder of the World Karaite Movement, a Karaite revival group in Israel. Some Christians like myself have recognised the importance of his work and its relevance to the re-establishment of God’s Calendar in the land of Israel, and how it connects to end time prophecy and the soon to be built temple that will use God's calendar.

Any one can easily work out what day, month and year it is on God Calendar, all you need to know is when the new waxing crescent moon can be seen from Jerusalem, this information is freely available to all from a variety of sources, here's one I use:

http://torahcalendar.com/MOON.asp?JDN=2458107&TDAY=1&MNFLG=2

http://torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y2017M9

From this you can work out when the days are in each month and when each Sabbath is. The years are determined by the need for the Barley to be ripe in Israel, as it is needed for the first fruits offering on Day 16 month 1 according to Torah law. If it isn't ripe then the additional 13th month is added. Here is this years calendar for example from another source: 

https://guidetothebible.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/guide_v2017calendar_year5988_2018.pdf

Christians are not called to honor a specific Sabbath day. Exact timing is no longer important but The Jewish Sabbath is still Saturday and the Lord's day is still Sunday. Read the bible not the work of men

[inchrist]

11 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Time zones has everything to do with Sat vs Sun sabbaths, sorry you can't seem to comprehend that.

Do we have to get nasty? Can we not jave a pleasent chat.....i understand the ops frustration

[inchrist]

2 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Christians are not called to honor a specific Sabbath day. 

This is not what the discussion is about

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

4 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Christians are not called to honor a specific Sabbath day. Exact timing is no longer important but The Jewish Sabbath is still Saturday and the Lord's day is still Sunday. Read the bible not the work of men

I agree Christians are not called to honor a specific Sabbath day but that is not what this thread is about. 

1. It is reasonable to assume that Jesus kept the Sabbath and therefore the ancient Hebrew calendar and it's Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts must have been common knowledge at this time.

2. After the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews no longer had a temple to sacrifice in nor a priesthood to do it as they had all been killed. The Romans virtually killed everyone in Jerusalem and Massada where the rest of the rebels ran to. This left the Jewish population decimated and of the Jews living else where in Israel who had survived, by cow-towing to the Romans, very few return or decided to live in Jerusalem after 70 AD. The Sanhedrin however did mange to largely survive and formed a seat of rabbinic learning in the south of Galilee, where they maintained the practice of keeping the ancient Hebrew calendar and it's Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts by travelling to Jerusalem each month to sight the new moon. 

3. Over the successive generations from 70 AD onwards these traumatic events had forced the Jews to look for sanctuary within the rest of the Roman Empire and beyond in what was called the Diaspora. They were refugees scattered in small groups and families, struggling to survive in foreign countries where they were more often than not treated as the lowest of the low.

4. Then after the Simon Bar Kokbha revolt between 132 - 135 AD and Emperor Hadrian's violent response which was one of Rome's largest ever military responses to rebellion in the empire with some 13 legions being sent, (only 4 were sent in 70 AD for example); Hadrian then banned all Jews from even being with in eye sight of Jerusalem by pain of death and after this there were even fewer Jews living in Israel. This also meant the Sanhedrin could no longer visually sight the new moon from Jerusalem in order to know when their Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts were. Even though the new moon could be sighted from Jerusalem up to 135 AD this meant nothing to the poor survivors living abroad as there was no way that the monthly sightings could be sent to them quickly enough for them to calculate when the Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts were meant to be. They could try to sight the new moon from wherever they were but then this would be on different days compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west.

5. Instead the Jews found themselves living in an empire which was being taken over by the new Roman Julian calendar, named after Julius Caesar. This new calendar that first took effect in the province of Rome had started on 1st January 45 BC and this day was named 'Friday' (each the 7 days of this new calendar was given a new name, named after a Roman god). However the day before 1st January 45 BC the Romans calculated dates using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were simply named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) and which had been used for hundreds years by the Romans in the province of Rome. The new Julian calendar 7 day week was created by Sosigenes the Greek Mathematician and it had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, as they were totally separate from each other. It then took about 400 years before all the other countries within the Roman Empire were eventually forced to use the new Julian calendar as recorded in history. 

 

6. As the new Roman Julian 7 day week that began separately from the ancient Hebrew week began to take over the Roman Empire, the early church, which was mainly made up of non-Jews (after Peter the first Pope), simply used the new Julian calendar's 7th day (Saturday) as the Sabbath, even though it had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar and its reckoning of when the Sabbath was. The Roman Catholic church carried on with this regardless of the fact that the Julian calendar was totally different from the ancient Hebrew calendar.

 

7. From 135 AD to 321 AD over half a dozen generations came and went, with each generation of impoverished Jews continuing the struggle to survive within the Roman Empire. As each generation lived and worked in these countries that were using the new 7 day Julian week, it meant that more and more Jews were forced to work on their Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar or face becoming even more impoverished. While they tried to maintain as much of their traditions as possible most could not keep their Sabbaths, new moons or annual feasts on the correct day as calculated by their ancient Hebrew calendar. As said even if they tried to sight the new moon from wherever they were living this would not be on the same day compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west, and more importantly on the day the new moon would be seen from Jerusalem. As each generation gradually came and went it became harder and harder to NOT fit in with the new Roman Julian 7 day working week and its Saturday Sabbath. Eventually over these generations the ancient reckoning of the Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar was practically lost to history and the Jews living in the Empire gradually accepted Saturday as the Sabbath more and more. 

8. Then in 321 AD the Roman Emperor Constantine who hated the Jews (along with most of the rest of the Roman world) changed the day of rest on the new Julian calendar from Saturday to Sunday, this forced the impoverished Jews to either work on what many thought by now was the Sabbath (Saturday) or become even more impoverished. This caused and has since caused even more confusion amongst Christians and Jews as to when the real Sabbath is, as really it has never been on Saturday or Sunday on the Roman Julian calendar but has always been calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar.

9. In response to all this in 359 AD Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II in Israel created the new modern Jewish calendar which uses the mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle, that allowed Jews to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they lived (even though half of the time it is a day out compared to the visually sighted new moon from Jerusalem). However, although this gives a good approximation of when the Jewish new moon days and annual feast are, Hillel appears to have not attempted to try and get the Jews to also follow the original Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar. The reason for this was because the Jews who were scattered across the Roman Empire and beyond were still simply struggling to survive and had become so used to the new Julian calendar and it's Saturday Sabbath, that if they would have tried to go back to worshipping on the correct day as reckoned by their ancient Hebrew calendar it would have placed a further burden on them and put them at risk of being even more persecuted, because taking days off work that were calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar rather than fitting in with the Julian Saturday Sabbath would have caused confusion and more resentment towards them.

10. The Hebrew calendar and it reckoning of when the Sabbath really was drifted from human history to be almost forgotten. This calendar that was once common knowledge to the ancient Hebrews and the authors of the Bible never thought it necessary to explain this calendar in one convenient place as they never envisaged a time when it would not be used. However, hidden amongst the scriptures of the Bible are many references to the ancient Hebrew calendar and its Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts, which can be sifted out and reconstructed. This is not an easy thing to do however, if it was then more people would know about it but then most people don't even know about all the above information either, so it is understandable if you have never heard about where and how these snippets of scripture explain the ancient Hebrew calendar. Their are various studies on the ancient Hebrew calendar as describes in the Bible and here are a few that are helpful:

Articles:

https://guidetothebible.wordpress.co...ding-the-book/

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

19 minutes ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

I agree Christians are not called to honor a specific Sabbath day but that is not what this thread is about. 

Well it kind of is, as the thread seems to be about what is the "right" Sabbath day. There is no "right" any longer because even though the Jewish Saturday Sabbath hasnt changed; we are not under that dispensation; the bible is clear.....

Romans 14:5 

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16 

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

[inchrist]

2 hours ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

Thanks but my frustration or rather non-plus POV is that the Sabbath is neither Saturday or Sunday but is lunar as the OP and that long post explains. Yes I know it's long and it is somewhat complex to understand but it is not beyond most peoples ability to grasp what is being explained and to believe these facts. 

Ok, let me address why I view lunar sabbath in error.

 It is reasonable to assume that Jesus kept the Sabbath and therefore the ancient Hebrewcalendar and it's Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts must have been common knowledge at this time

When we dont need to assume we can go straight to the talmud. (these comments are during temple period)

R. Zera replied: The New Moon is different from a festival - Since its mention is included in the benediction on the sanctity of the day in the morning and evening prayers it is also included in that of the additional prayer. But do Beth Shammai uphold the view that the mention of the New Moon is to be included? Was it not in fact taught: If a New Moon falls on a Sabbath,Beth Shammai ruled: One recites in his additional prayer eight benedictions and Beth Hillel ruled: Seven? This is indeed a difficulty." Talmud - Mas. Eiruvin 40b

The New Moon never falls on a Sabbath because the Lunar Sabbath is never on the first day of the month.

Of they were keping the Lunar Sabbath, they wouldnt be having this discussion. 

Mishnah. The bones, and the sinews, and the nothar of the paschal lamb are to be burnt on the sixteenth. If the sixteenth falls on the Sabbath, they are to be burnt on the seventeenth, because they do not override either the Sabbath or the festival." Talmud - Pesachim 83a

If the 16th day falls on the sabbath? Lunar sabbath you dont have a 16th day.

 

5. Instead the Jews found themselves living in an empire which was being taken over bythe new Roman Julian calendar, named after Julius Caesar. This new calendar that first took effect in the province of Rome had started on 1st January 45 BC and this day was named 'Friday' (each the 7 days of this new calendar was given a new name, named after a Roman god). However the day before 1st January 45 BC the Romans calculated dates using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days weresimply named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) and which had been used for hundreds years by the Romans in the province ofRome. The new Julian calendar7 day week was created by Sosigenes the Greek Mathematician and it had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, as they were totally separate from each other. It then took about 400 years before all the other countries within the RomanEmpire were eventually forced to use the new Julian calendaras recorded in history

Josephus states the following:

"The masses have long since shown a keen desire to adopt our religious observances; and there is not one city, Greek or barbarian, nor a single nation, to which our custom of abstaining from work on the seventh day has not spread and where our fasts and the lighting of lamps and many of our prohibitions in the matter of food are not observed. Apion 2:282-283

 

 

 

 

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

18 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Well it kind of is, as the thread seems to be about what is the "right" Sabbath day. There is no "right" any longer because even though the Jewish Saturday Sabbath hasnt changed; we are not under that dispensation; the bible is clear.....

Romans 14:5 

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16 

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If you are not going to address the OP then please refrain from posting here I have reported two others here for doing the same already. Thank you.

[inchrist]

9 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Well it kind of is, as the thread seems to be about what is the "right" Sabbath day. There is no "right" any longer because even though the Jewish Saturday Sabbath hasnt changed; we are not under that dispensation; the bible is clear.....

 

So we not allowed to talk about it, is what you saying?

[TheMatrixHasU71]

21 minutes ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

If you are not going to address the OP then please refrain from posting here I have reported two other here for doing the same already. Thank you.

You cant tell me not to post here. And I WAS addressing the OP.