MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Yowm said: Gads, you are talking about nothing but 'be ye perfect'. Are you now saying we can sin and be perfect? In case you missed the original post, I said to pray and ask for God to help us be perfect. Are you saying God can't make us perfect? Edited December 9, 2017 by MyLordsServant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Yowm said: I have already told you God WILL make us perfect (sinless) in the resurrection when we receive our new body. But for now I stand with Paul... If Jesus came to earth and said: "Yowm, be perfect, go and sin no more". What would you say? "Sorry, Jesus no can do, I'm a sinner for life. I'll be perfect once you take me to heaven". Or instead, "Yes Master, help me be perfect". If it's so important to you, that you stay a sinner, then do as you will. And yes I mean, stay a sinner. When you deceive yourself to the point where you don't believe in perfection, you will indeed not be perfect. Nor have a full intent to at least strive for perfection through Jesus. But I will strive for perfection and ask my Father for help in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: Exactly, Yowm. On that note: when someone claims that we can be "perfect and sinless now", they are committing the same mistake as those who claim that if the Lord doesn't heal us now when we pray, we must have sinned somehow. Both assumptions come from the same source: assuming that God must do everything at once when we demand it. Demand? Interesting, I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion. At what point does 'asking' become 'demanding'. Like one post stated, can you be sinless for more than 5 seconds. Yes, so why not your entire life. Everyone misinterprets "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us." I have sinned, but I have been sinless for the last 5 seconds. Edited December 9, 2017 by MyLordsServant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 Just now, Sojourner414 said: 1) Wasn't talking to you; I was talking to Yowm. 2) No, you haven't. Since you made a false presumption about me and posted it, you bore false witness against me. That breaks one of the 10 commandments. So much for your record; now I can put you back on ignore. Cheers. 1) If you want to talk to Yowm without having anyone reply, go to private messenger. 2) I didn't make any presumption, other than state the fact that you said, "demand", which you couldn't defend your reasoning for. 3) Ignoring a fellow Christian isn't Christian like. Also I think your "Oy Vey" button is broken. Hitting it on every post of mine, without even reading what I write, simply because you don't agree. I could write, "Praise God", and you would throw an "Oy Vey". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: 1)And there you go making assumptions again: how do you know what I read and when? I don't necessarily hit the button when I first read a post. 2) And what do you plan to do about it? NOTHING. 1) I know, because I type out a full 3-5 paragraphs, and within 5 seconds, you hit the button. Who knows, maybe you can read 50 words/second. 2) I plan to pray for you, brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 If you don't sin for 5 weeks, and die on that 5th week, didn't you end with a sinless close to life? For some people this could be 5 seconds to death, without sin. Then why not 2 years or 2 decades? Is it impossible? It's unlikely, but it's possible. All is possible through Jesus, if we ask and pray, and strive for perfection. When I say sinless, I mean you have sinned, but from the point you sinned, until the next sin or until death. But the simple fact the striving for perfection is gone, it will lead you nowhere good. Everyone here preaches, "don't sin, don't sin, follow commandments". But as soon as you say, "I will strive to follow commandments and not sin, and ask the Father for help in perfection", then everyone has a problem all of the sudden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listener24 Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 650 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, MyLordsServant said: Pray and ask humbly, "Dear Father, help me be perfect". It may seem like a prideful prayer, so it's generally avoided, but it is needed. Too many people accept sin as permanent and intractable, even after being born again. If the Spirit of God is truly in you, and you have a new heart, it is definitely possible. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48. This is a high standard to reach, but possible. "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." To me the point seems incredibly simple. We should aim for perfection, asking God to help us in this path, as is written many times. The possible outcomes are 2: 1) If we reach it on this earth, praise to the Lord. And we still need the Lord to forgive us and cast our condition, we are nothing without Him and if we reach this is thanks to Him. 2) If we don't reach it, we are still saved if we believe that the Son of Man can forgive us, but this shouldn't lower our goals. Simple, as they said "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." I see no dichotomy between this concept, and the fact that only Jesus can save us, and that we need our condition, starting from this fleshly body, to be completely transformed by Jesus in Heaven (as @Yowm said). So I think that both you and @Yowm are saying right things. It's just a matter of perspective. Last, even if someone reaches a state of near perfection on this earth, he will never know it, so he can never boast himself to have reached that because only the Lord knows if he is sinning or not. So one must stay humble, but must always aim high. Edited December 9, 2017 by listener24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLordsServant Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 479 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 171 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/18/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, listener24 said: To me the point seems incredibly simple. We should aim for perfection, asking God to help us in this path, as is written many times. The possible outcomes are 2: 1) If we reach it on this earth, praise to the Lord. And we still need the Lord to forgive us and cast our condition, we are nothing without Him and if we reache this is thanks to Him. 2) If we don't, we are still saved if we believe that the Son of Man can forgive us, but this shouldn't lower our goals. Simple, as they said "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." I see no dichotomy between this concept, and the fact that only Jesus can save us, and that we need our condition, starting from this fleshly body, to be completely transformed by Jesus in Heaven. Last, even if someone reaches a state of near perfection on this earth, he will never know it, so he can never boast himself to have reached that because only the Lord knows if he is sinning or not. So one must stay humble, but must always aim high. Amen brother. It is incredibly simple, and so much so, that it's easy to look past the simplicity, and make it complicated. I believe people are assuming and referring to perfection as instantaneous: boom, no more sin forever. Rather than realizing, it's something that's matured in, and worked on with patience, prayer and fasting. And we do not do these things, because we believe it will save us. But because we love Jesus, and therefore keep his commandments. "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever." Do you love Jesus enough to keep his commandments to perfection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listener24 Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 650 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Yowm said: always reforming being brought to repentance as that is how the Lord grows us. Even if we would ever reach a near-perfection state, we would never know it, because only the Lord can judge. So I agree that we should always stay in repentance! At the same time, the "goal", the "ideal" that could guide us could be "Be Perfect, Just as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect". In the spirit of "shooting for the moon", and knowing that it's the Father that operate in us so we have no credit. But without ever thinking to have reached perfection or that we don't need repentance, I agree with you that it would be really bad to think that! Edited December 9, 2017 by listener24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4LdKHVCzRDj2 Posted December 9, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,453 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 1,453 Days Won: 6 Joined: 11/02/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1991 Share Posted December 9, 2017 It does not seem it is promoting sinlessness. And I believe @MyLordsServant just want to warn about having sin as a friend, maybe he is not expressing it very well. Falling in evil temptation does not feel good, and it never has to be. But just because one do not fall to evil temptation, - and that is good, it is a sign that you are on the rock (which is Jesus) - but it does not mean one is sinless. To be considered sinless one has to never sin in any way. And we all sin much more but we just do not notice it. We are under grace. Then what I am seeing is that people are seeking not to fall in evil temptation, or get tempted by evil. And that is good, but chasing and choosing to sin on purpose (i.e. to follow the flesh) is never good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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