The "instance" of salvation

[Guest PistosHuios]

This is just sort of an opinion deal, I've read a lot of the arguments for and against Once Saved Always Saved. I noticed also that there is a thread that is going right now on the issue. I do not want to beat a dead horse but I have been considering this "issue" from another angle, and maybe it's been done before, and maybe not. I'm not here to argue just to consider the views. I hope both sides can toss in their imput on what I'm about to say.

We often times focus on the "Always Saved" aspect of Once saved always saved. We debate endlessly about if someone is saved then...

However, maybe the heart of the matter is not so much the "Always Saved" but the "Once Saved". It seems to me that tracts, Billy Graham, and modern evangelism movement have put so much emphasis on "the decision" that they fail to emphasize the more important aspect of "disciple". That is living like Christ. We were never EVER, commanded to get "decisions" for Christ or "Sinners Prayers" or to simply Preach the Cross for the sake of a raised hand. As it is written we are commanded to "Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I (Christ) have commanded."

The more I consider Assurance of Salvation, and the OSAS contraversy the more I am convinced that it stems from a misunderstanding of what constitutes a POINT at which we get saved.

So then the question:

1. in your view what, TO GOD, constitutes a "ONCE SAVED" person?

Also, please post your view in regards both to Arminian vs. Calvin and Whether or not you feel "once saved always saved" is indeed a true statement.

Lastly, try not to intercommunicate or debate. Simply state you view. This will keep from "heated" discussion, and it will help me get your view without trudging through meaningless arguments, that we've all heard before. Again don't argue against the other side, but present positively your side.

So try not to say things like "the problem with such and such" or "well pistoshuios the problem I have." Just state your view in regards to the OS aspect of the OSAS contraversy. Thanks for your input, I look forward to reading your responses.

I am Reformed in my soteriology (5-pointer if you must) and Baptist in regards to ecclesiology, and eschatology. I am a believer in the Perseverance of the Elect Saints of God. That is to say, those whom God has chosen will be saved, they will respond positively to the gospel, and they will submit to the teachings of Christ and the Scriptures. They may fail at times, but they will persevere in the end. So I am a "once saved always saved" believer.

[Guest Enchiridion]

However, maybe the heart of the matter is not so much the "Always Saved" but the "Once Saved".  It seems to me that tracts, Billy Graham, and modern evangelism movement have put so much emphasis on "the decision" that they fail to emphasize the more important aspect of "disciple".  That is living like Christ.  We were never EVER, commanded to get "decisions" for Christ or "Sinners Prayers" or to simply Preach the Cross for the sake of a raised hand.  As it is written we are commanded to "Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I (Christ) have commanded."

The more I consider Assurance of Salvation, and the OSAS contraversy the more I am convinced that it stems from a misunderstanding of what constitutes a POINT at which we get saved.

So then the question:

1. in your view what, TO GOD, constitutes a "ONCE SAVED" person? 

An excellent point and an excellent question, one that, I believe, gets to the heart of the controversy.

I believe that a person's salvation comes from God, not from something that person has done, or prayed, or "accepted" or "decided." That being the case, a person can reject the salvation which has come to him. Over the course of a person's life, he can have salvation, decide he doesn't want it, see the error of his ways and again receive it. He goes from saved to unsaved to saved again. So in the "OSAS" debate I do not accept the "once" part.

Can a person unwittingly lose his salvation? No. He can only give it up in an act of will. Can a person be uncertain of his salvation? Goodness yes. I see it every day on these boards. Does that uncertainty mean his salvation is actually in question? No, because salvation belongs to our God, and it is His to give. He will not take it away.

RO 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

One other point; our discipleship, our desire to live like Jesus, is borne out of our salvation, it is not a precursor of our salvation. When we are saved, our works are sanctified and come to fruition through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Enchiridion

[Deez131]

Well, I am a Reformed Baptist as well, so you know where I'm coming from. I'll answer your questions anyway.

#1 What, to God constitutes a saved person? I'm not sure if you're asking when they're saved or what they do once they're saved. People's hearts are changed when He decides to change their hearts. He's already died for the sins of His people, so you could say our assurance of salvation came from His finished work on the cross - because He actually accomplished salvation for His people on the cross. Once the change of heart takes place, the person naturally wants to follow their Master and do what He would have them do.

#2 As far as Arminianism and Calvinism, I'm a true 5 pointer (Calvinism). I don't think you're going to find many on this board that agree though. For that matter, I don't think most people know that their beliefs are Arminian (people don't generally like being labeled). That would be an interesting conversation. Put the 5 Arminian points and the 5 Calvinist points up and let everyone read them. Regarding the once saved always saved statement...... I believe that once God changes the heart of a person toward Him, they are saved and that our salvation is as secure as knowing that God did the work and He can't fail. He gave His son a gift of His people, Christ died for their sins, the Holy Spirit draws those people to Him. Perfect working together and harmony in the Godhead. I believe the only way a person could loose salvation is if some part of the Godhead didn't do His part. Unthinkable to me.

Hope that answered your question.

[tsth]

1. in your view what, TO GOD, constitutes a "ONCE SAVED" person?

Their response to His revealing and conviction of sin in their lives. A ONCE SAVED person, can no longer dismiss the Truth in God's Word, regarding their sin, and they MUST REACT IN BELIEF! This is a ONCE SAVED person. They regard God's Word as Truth!!! And respond accordingly as one who believes/has faith.

The Question

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest daddy]

This is just sort of an opinion deal, I've read a lot of the arguments for and against Once Saved Always Saved.  I noticed also that there is a thread that is going right now on the issue.  I do not want to beat a dead horse but I have been considering this "issue" from another angle, and maybe it's been done before, and maybe not.  I'm not here to argue just to consider the views.  I hope both sides can toss in their imput on what I'm about to say.

We often times focus on the "Always Saved" aspect of Once saved always saved.  We debate endlessly about if someone is saved then...

However, maybe the heart of the matter is not so much the "Always Saved" but the "Once Saved".  It seems to me that tracts, Billy Graham, and modern evangelism movement have put so much emphasis on "the decision" that they fail to emphasize the more important aspect of "disciple".  That is living like Christ.  We were never EVER, commanded to get "decisions" for Christ or "Sinners Prayers" or to simply Preach the Cross for the sake of a raised hand.  As it is written we are commanded to "Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I (Christ) have commanded."

The more I consider Assurance of Salvation, and the OSAS contraversy the more I am convinced that it stems from a misunderstanding of what constitutes a POINT at which we get saved.

So then the question:

1. in your view what, TO GOD, constitutes a "ONCE SAVED" person? 

Also, please post your view in regards both to Arminian vs. Calvin and Whether or not you feel "once saved always saved"  is indeed a true statement.

Lastly, try not to intercommunicate or debate.  Simply state you view.  This will keep from "heated" discussion, and it will help me get your view without trudging through meaningless arguments, that we've all heard before.  Again don't argue against the other side, but present positively your side.

So try not to say things like "the problem with such and such" or "well pistoshuios the problem I have."  Just state your view in regards to the OS aspect of the OSAS contraversy.  Thanks for your input, I look forward to reading your responses.

I am Reformed in my soteriology (5-pointer if you must) and Baptist in regards to ecclesiology, and eschatology.  I am a believer in the Perseverance of the Elect Saints of God.  That is to say, those whom God has chosen will be saved, they will respond positively to the gospel, and they will submit to the teachings of Christ and the Scriptures.  They may fail at times, but they will persevere in the end.  So I am a "once saved always saved" believer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest daddy]

a few weeks ago or so i came across an article of an old church i use to attend on their website of backsliding and fallen from grace that you can loose your salvation by those things.that put me in a unhealthy fear which i don't need or want.and i don't wanna feel like i have to walk on "eggshells" of sinning.i search around in my books and on websites.all it was a yes and no answers.all it is is man's opinion.everyone uses scriptures to support to what they think is right.but did god tell them this is what it is or what it says in the bible, and this it what it means in the bible.only god knows the truth.it's confusing when you get two diffrent answers (yes and no).

note:i'm unable to recieve email here cause it said i'm a new user.

angelandfisherman@tds.net

Edited April 14, 2005 by daddy

[Khristeeanos]

a few weeks ago or so i came across an article of an old church i use to attend on their website of backsliding and fallen from grace that you can loose your salvation by those things.that put me in a unhealthy fear which i don't need or want.and i don't wanna feel like i have to walk on "eggshells" of sinning.i search around in my books and on websites.all it was a yes and no answers.all it is is man's opinion.everyone uses scriptures to support to what they think is right.but did god tell them this is what it is or what it says in the bible, and this it what it means in the bible.only god knows the truth.it's confusing when you get two diffrent answers (yes and no).

note:i'm unable to recieve email here cause it said i'm a new user.

angelandfisherman@tds.net

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is why we should look at the history of the church to assist us in finding the answers. OSAS and Calvinism didn't exist before 1,500 AD except for one person as far as I can read. I just don't see how it can be a Biblical doctrine.

But I do mostly agree with the thread originator.

I cringe when I see people trying so hard for a "decision" and then just lump them in with the congregation with no respect for helping them grow.

I have often used the Great Commission to prove that the sinners prayer is totally unbiblical. So is just getting people "converted."

It says that we are to make them a disciple and baptize them and teach them to obey all of the commands of Jesus.

[Remnantrob]

[i agree that no one or nothing can separate us from the love of God but that once saved always saved issue is an iffy topic. There were some examples in the bible of people who were appointed by God himself, and ultimately won't be saved. Think of King Saul. God appointed him because there was none in israel as Godly as him. And he ultimately turned away from God. And then there was Judas, one of the 12 disciples who betrayed christ. Christ chose him to be a follower and he walked away from the love of God. Christ will never let his saving grace get away from you, but once you say once saved always saved, you take away from the gift of free will that he gave us. True love has the choice to say no. That is why you must heed the words of Paul and die to Christ daily, because you are going to do want you don't want to do at times. But as long as you choose Christ each day, his blood will wash ALL those sins away.

[Deez131]

That is why we should look at the history of the church to assist us in finding the answers.  OSAS and Calvinism didn't exist before 1,500 AD except for one person as far as I can read.  I just don't see how it can be a Biblical doctrine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not a debate.....this is not a debate.....this is not......a.....debate...... (Denise talking to herself).

You're still my buddy Jake. In fact, you should have heard the entire conversation I just had with you.

[Khristeeanos]

That is why we should look at the history of the church to assist us in finding the answers.