God, Time and Foreknowledge; how can God know the future?

[ytLiJC]

3 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Time is something I believe God created for our universe the physical, beyond the physical is infinity, I can say we don't know exactly but your analogy of a beginning and end of God, well that could be a repeating process, scripture does say anything is possible with Him as well its forever and ever. cycle or no cycle.

those scriptures you mention, another time frame (a watch in the night) is 3 hours

a thousand years is like 3 hours.

 

if there is no conscious soul in the universe to think or do something so that they may begin to have a sense, idea or perception of time elapsed and elapsing through the presence of a sequence of thoughts or deeds, then time will not matter, because there will be no one to ascertain that there is time, for no one will exist in a conscious state, but this doesn't mean that there will be no time passing, because the souls will be in a state of unconsciousness(IOW, there will be no existence for them) for some time, which could be measured... - from this perspective we can say that there can be something or nothing at a certain time and for a certain length of time...

why do i testify to this?, because what i am given to understand is that time passes even for God Himself, for His life also has a span(cycle), though He never stops existing and living even for a while throughout the time's infinity; so His life has an end (through something like a partial death) followed immediately by a next beginning (return to His fully mature shape of life), and one beginning and end of His life is one single cycle of eternity

Revelation 1:17-18 (Aramaic Bible) "I am The First and The Last(i.e. the first one that is born and the last one that "dies"); I am he who lived and died, and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities(i.e. and now I am again living, indeed, I am alive for the whole infinity of time), amen, and I have the key of Death and of Sheol.",

Revelation 21:5-6 (Aramaic Bible) "I walked and he who sat on the throne said to me, "Behold, I make all things new(i.e. God makes all things that had happened in the previous cycle of eternity happen again in exactly the same way, order and sequence in the current cycle of eternity)." And he said to me, "Write: 'These words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "They are done(i.e. lo everything repeats in exactly the same way, order and sequence). I am Alap and I am Tau, The Source and The Fulfillment. I shall give to the thirsty one from the fountain of the water of life without charge.""

Blessings

[listener24]

From the article:

"Science is the study of the created order, and as such, gives us insight into the glory of God clearly seen in the things that have been made. So an investigation into what God has created can give us insight into His works, if not directly into his nature."

True, we have insights from the Bible about His "personal" traits, and we have the fullness of His traits in Jesus. But of course not about His "composition".

"Time has a beginning. God said, Let there be light, and it was so. Whether that was a Big Bang, or not, Time was created when Light was created." Interesting, and yes that's what the science says. "Einstein’s theories of the relativity of Time and the space-time continuum have been demonstrated through experimentation. His theories show that matter, energy, light, and gravity are all intertwined and are inextricably related. That makes our 4 dimensional universe (space in 3D and time) a created order. God is not the created order but above and beyond it. He is the Uncaused Causer."

Let's aways remember that regardless how many proofs in favor of a theory, even a single counterproof can jeopardize the soundness of the model. Therefore, we may know even less than we think about time. Therefore, we should stop making absurd statements like "since the Father has set a date for something, that means we have no influence on that date.". Because we may had an influence when He set the date in His way to see and decide the future, since He takes into account our cooperation (as a ridiculous amount of Scriptures prove) and we haven't the least idea about how time works for Him. Or we should stop thinking that our prayers are "against" sovereignty of God. We are using our ant's brain to state something bigger than us, and that is not in the Scriptures, if we do so. So for example, if they Scriptures say: "ask and you'll receive", let's trust the Scriptures without convoluted timing reasonings.

"God can see the end from the beginning,  just as one can see both sides of a box by walking past it. My analogy is this:

A two dimensional creature cannot see the end of a line from the beginning of it because he is embedded in the line itself; it is however no problem for a three dimensional being to see the end from the beginning because he has a z-axis, another perspective where he can view the line from outside the line (just as we can see a line drawn on paper)."

This is a nice explanation. If you want an even nicer picture of this concept read "Flatland"  

"Therefore to limit God’s ability to know the future is to presume that we understand the limits of higher dimensions. Since we cannot experience those higher planes, we cannot proscribe their limits with theology or philosophy, nor can we understand their perspective."

Again, agree. As I said above, let's stop questioning how free will is compatible with God's foreknowledge. Scriptures says is compatible: period! That's all we need. because we don't really have a grasp on the limits of higher dimensions. Therefore, when in the Bible it's written that God "changes" His plan because of the requests of His prophets, that's just a nice image to tell us that in His foreknowledge, God took into account also our choices and requests. So it was already in His will, His decision to listen to the prophets or to cooperate with His sheeps.

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Long story short: beautiful article to open our mind on being cautios when reasonings about issues like foreknowledge, because we are only able to analyze fewer "dimensions" than God can. 

We are like the bidmensional creatures in the book "Flatland", if not far less.

Let's trust the Scriptures. If God says that prayers can hasten His decisions (like in 2Peter3:12), let's trust them, without sounding ridiculous in making human statements about time.

 

 

 

[ScottA]

On 12/29/2017 at 9:50 PM, MorningGlory said:

This article provides a good explanation of God's relation to time as opposed to ours.  It makes sense that, since He created everything, he created time as well.   He exists outside of time, no beginning and no end, and the only time He was subject to time as we are was when He became flesh and came to live among us.

https://incisivereview.com/2015/07/15/god-time-and-foreknowledge-how-can-god-know-the-future/

Not completely accurate, but pretty good. It's a start.

[MorningGlory]

11 hours ago, ScottA said:

Not completely accurate, but pretty good. It's a start.

What is not accurate?

[ScottA]

2 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

What is not accurate?

1. There is no "God's day" in the understanding of "I am."
2. The physics are appreciated, but not the point. God does not use physics, they simply explain God's creation from a mechanical standpoint. So, at some point it is important to switch from using worldly terms and physics, to using the proper terms according to God. Which, instead of physics being the outcome of creation, it is rather "manifestations." The problem with using the term "physics", is it assumes that the physical world is the greater reality through which all things must be viewed. Therefore, it is important to correct that assumption and clearly say, "God has manifest what would appear to be reality, which is not, but is created merely for our viewing in a process of Him revealing Himself to us. In other words, if 'I am' is unseen, then what is visible in the world is not Him, but rather an "image." For this reason Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", and "I go to the Father, and the world sees me no more."
3. Relating events in time (as with the use of the Communion analogy) with the timeless nature of God, in effect, gives the impression that the two are equal, when they are not. They may be a demon-stration of something that has timeless implications, but the events themselves are not timeless. The problem is, time is the media in which God has demon-strated evil and His dealings with it: time is evil by nature, prone to corruption, while God is not. And to paint God and His righteous acts within time in the same light...is not accurate, not the rule, but the exception.
4. God's "purpose for this life" is not "a test." God's purpose is the manifestation and revelation of evil and His deals with it. It is the testimony of witnesses for His judgement, the presentation of evidence, given by God and by the perpetrators themselves...leaving God's hands clean of any evil, and holy.
5. It is important to understand the difference between the terms, "resurrection" and "ascension." While God, in His word may use them synonymously, we cannot. The problem is that while God may use both in regard to the spirit, we want to apply it to the flesh also. Which leads one to incorrectly believe that flesh and blood actually do inherit the kingdom, when they do not. So, then, to clarify using Jesus as the example: Jesus' "resurrection" was purely of the flesh, but His "ascension" was of the spirit. This we know because He showed His power over death (and the flesh) in raising Lazarus (and others), who did not then walk to and from heaven or through walls in bodily form, but remained in the flesh. But then, of course, Christ also showed Himself not to be a spirit after His resurrection, but then ascended to the Father, whom is spirit. Therefore, the one is of the flesh and the other of the spirit.

...But, don't get me wrong, it is good to begin to understand God with a bit of confirmation from science...if that is what it takes. So, it's good, just not perfect (which of course, is the pattern set forth in the creation: "very good", but not "perfect" as our "Father in heaven is perfect."

Edited January 5, 2018 by ScottA

[MorningGlory]

4 hours ago, ScottA said:

...But, don't get me wrong, it is good to begin to understand God with a bit of confirmation from science...if that is what it takes. So, it's good, just not perfect (which of course, is the pattern set forth in the creation: "very good", but not "perfect" as our "Father in heaven is perfect."

I'm not 'beginning' to understand God; I've always been a believer and have studied Scripture for years.  God created physics and all science.  Being Christian doesn't mean you have to live like people did in Jesus' time.  He gave us brains for a reason.

[MorningGlory]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Let's face it: God created time to keep everything from happening all at once.

[ScottA]

9 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

I'm not 'beginning' to understand God; I've always been a believer and have studied Scripture for years.  God created physics and all science.  Being Christian doesn't mean you have to live like people did in Jesus' time.  He gave us brains for a reason.

What has that got to do with the truth that is behind the facade of what is manifest before both the evil and the good? Are you saying you prefer science speculation over spiritual truth?

[MorningGlory]

6 minutes ago, ScottA said:

What has that got to do with the truth that is behind the facade of what is manifest before both the evil and the good? Are you saying you prefer science speculation over spiritual truth?

No; I'm saying God created science, along with everything else, and that I get my spiritual truth from Scripture.

[ScottA]

5 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

No; I'm saying God created science, along with everything else, and that I get my spiritual truth from Scripture.

Okay. But you seem to be expressing some favoritism for science, or a pride of such knowledge...like God would be pleased to see that we did not just take everything on faith, but were dabbling in one of His masterpieces of creation? Because I didn't mean to question your knowledge of science or spiritual truth...just to continue with what the article had begun in that was not completely accurate. Sorry, if I made you defensive.