Church and abusive marriages

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

A few things may I comment on sister......I know the churches have failed miserably at dealing with sin in their ranks......and I mean an utter fail, I'm sure we agree there.  And it is for the very reason that they have failed to do according to how the bible instructs us on dealing with sin in the Body of Christ.  It does condemn going to the law against our brother......but the apostles do tell us how we can handle sinful situations effectively in the Lord.  Physical abuse is not a reason to divorce, separation certainly, but not divorce.........the issue of the two becoming one flesh and no man tearing asunder what God has joined together is a serious one........sexual purity is of UTMOST importance to salvation and holiness and without it no-one will see the Lord.  I know we have been led astray by a church that is falling away in these last days, and a famine of His words, so there is a dire need to come back to the Lord and how He says to do things in His word.....dear sister, we are all to love our enemies, forgiving them and doing good to them and pray FOR them, not against them.   Remember Jesus saying,"you have heard it said, and eye for an eye etc, but I say unto to you........ "  It's a new covenant in the spirit and no longer an old covenant of flesh and earthly things, so in Christ we serve in the new way of the Spirit now.........foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Sister its rare to see truth these days.     As you said they can Separate , but let them remain unmarried , OR be reconciled back to one the other .  Paul knew

JESUS meant business when he said IF they remarry ITS adultery.    OH  , they can separate , BUT NEITHER can remarry.    

That is the part most miss. THEY cant REMARRY another .  Adultery will never be recognized in the eyes OF GOD.

just as gay marriage never will, neither will adultery.  SO,   while we do all to warn out against errors, OH let us make sure we aint a walking contradiction.  meaning

I still see some hollering out against gay marriage and saying how wicked it is.  And yeah it is,  HOWEVER they say it as they hugging they second , third , fourth , fifth wife or husband.

NOW I have to sound like JAMES ,  o vain man don't ya know gay marriage will always be sin to GOD.......BUT SO TOO IS ADULTERY.

[TickledPinkinChristWoot!]

Imagine giving a hateful abusive soon to be ex-husband that kind of power. Freeing oneself from an assaultive man only to never love again? For the rest of your life? Nonsense!

If we go by what Paul instructed to the churches he wrote his letters to in Corinth, we'd stay celibate till we died. But we can marry according to him because we can then exercise our natural God given passions.  

The only cause for divorce is adultery? What if the husband is physically assaultive? 

Is divorce allowed then? 

Paul commanded in 1 Corinthians7 his own directives regarding marriage. 
God forgives. We're under grace not under law. 

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, naominash said:

We will not agree on the issue of whether abuse is grounds for divorce. But I agree with the heart of your message.

 

Loving our enemies does not necessarily mean reconciling or trusting them. It means you help them if they need help, and give to them while in need. But it does not mean that an abuse victims needs to stay with their abuser.

I believe, forgiveness means renouncing personal vengeance. Saying that it means more is something that is used to control and coerce abusive victims into going back to spiritually and physically dangerous situations.

 

Here is why I believe abuse can be grounds for divorce.

1 Corinthians 7:15King James Version (KJV)

¹⁵ But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

I don't think chronic abusers are believers because the fruit of the Spirit is not fits of rage, abuse, and controlling behaviors.

 

It is the abuser who destroys a marriage by abusing and desertion, not a victim who gets the courage to walk away.

The church has no mercy when they prioritize a victim's marriage over the safety and soul of the victim. They are idolizing marriage for the sake of their own reputations, when in fact, Christ came to set captives free.

In so far as the church refuses to deal justly with abusers, children will be lead to believe we are hypocrites and victims will continue to suffer.

 

If we truly value the sanctity of marriage, let's not kid ourselves about the evil nature of those who claim the name of Christ and persecute His sheep behind closed doors.

Yes........if the unbeliever departs.....not the believer.  If an abusive unbelieving husband leaves the marriage, then the wife is no longer bound to the marriage.  But she herself is not to leave the marriage through divorce on grounds of abuse, because divorce can only be on grounds of adultery, though of course she may separate for her safety etc.  I am not sure we can say that all abusive men are unbelievers......people come to faith will all sorts of baggage, some the Lord will deal with right away, but some needs to be walked out, so I believe it is possible that some abusive husbands may be believers, but would be helped by discipline of the church to put their anger to death, or whatever the reason is they are abusive.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, naominash said:

What about 1st Corinthians 7:15?

"15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

 

Also, how do you think the church should treat couple's where one spouse is abusing the other?

They can separate.    and while separated the church should counsel both and try and get them reconciled.

But neither can remarry .    HE who puts away his wife save for fornication and marries another commits adultery and the one who was EVEN PUT AWAY

cannot remarry or its adultery.  save for fornication or  if one the other dies.  

REMEMBER how JESUS once said HAPPY is the one WHO KEEPS HIS SAYINGS.     Don't feel any sorrow for me.  I was once married

many , many years ago.    But due to  its adultery if I remarry I wont.  But  have never been happier just keeping HIS SAYINGS.

Believe it or not,    God gives US JOY just by KEEPING JESUS sayings.   But I must be grave now    , WOE to those who don't.   

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

They can separate.    and while separated the church should counsel both and try and get them reconciled.

But neither can remarry .    HE who puts away his wife save for fornication and marries another commits adultery and the one who was EVEN PUT AWAY

cannot remarry or its adultery.  save for fornication or  if one the other dies.  

REMEMBER how JESUS once said HAPPY is the one WHO KEEPS HIS SAYINGS.     Don't feel any sorrow for me.  I was once married

many , many years ago.    But due to  its adultery if I remarry I wont.  But  have never been happier just keeping HIS SAYINGS.

Believe it or not,    God gives US JOY just by KEEPING JESUS sayings.   But I must be grave now    , WOE to those who don't.   

Do you think the abusive man cares? Do you think he is not going to remarry? Many remarry when they have an unbiblical divorce. I am not going to remarry and I had a biblical divorce.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

Do you think the abusive man cares? Do you think he is not going to remarry? Many remarry when they have an unbiblical divorce. I am not going to remarry and I had a biblical divorce.

Let the wicked be wicked still, the unrighteous be unrighteous.

Just cause the other remarries don't mean I will.   I have never been happier just following Christ and His teachings. 

But I fear gravely for many who just use grace as an excuse to honor sin.   NOT YOU dear sister, but many do .

I want to leave us with something paul knew well.      Repentance is not just tears and staying in sin ,  SORROW , GODLY sorrow LEADS TO REPENTANCE.

Now.  notice something paul says .    SO  , if she be married to another man , WHILE her husband lives, she will be called an adulteress.

And no saying I am sorry yet remaining in the new marriage will matter.   She has to leave that new husband or be called an adulteress so long as he does live

it goes that way for the man too.    IF the person who did remarry did so while that first spouse lives.  ADULTERER or RESS and that no adulterer or ess has eternal life .

We have toget serious again.      I am not going to stand before GOD and have to answer why  I did not at least try and warn.  All we have to do is warn .   then its on the other.

Its serious .    I have found something very beautiful.   Their is no joy , nor peace like knowing Christ and if we truly loved HIM, then its HE , HIS sayings

before man wife  or anything .   YET I have found a deeper beauty.  ITS BY THIS LOVE , we see clearly HOW to help the other .   ITS JESUS SAYINGS .   

[TickledPinkinChristWoot!]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

They can separate.    and while separated the church should counsel both and try and get them reconciled.

But neither can remarry .    HE who puts away his wife save for fornication and marries another commits adultery and the one who was EVEN PUT AWAY

cannot remarry or its adultery.  save for fornication or  if one the other dies.  

REMEMBER how JESUS once said HAPPY is the one WHO KEEPS HIS SAYINGS.     Don't feel any sorrow for me.  I was once married

many , many years ago.    But due to  its adultery if I remarry I wont.  But  have never been happier just keeping HIS SAYINGS.

Believe it or not,    God gives US JOY just by KEEPING JESUS sayings.   But I must be grave now    , WOE to those who don't.   

Where did Jesus teach about divorce and remarriage? Not Paul's letters, Jesus himself. 

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, naominash said:

Fair enough on the abuse baggage. Though I still see too many instances where everyone just excuses gross abuse in the name of cheap grace.

We are SO naive when it comes to evil in the church.

I feel like the discipline of the church often doesn't even come to play enough. Especially if the abuser is a high ranking minister in the church.

 

" Oh I can't believe he beats his wife! He's so nice. Everyone makes mistakes. No one's perfect. Let's not gossip and just pray for him."

I don't see enough outrage in the church about domestic abuse when it appears. And I don't see enough people trying to help victims be safe. Instead, victims are told to just keep praying. 

This angers me. We ought to be swift in justly dealing with abusers. As for me, I don't care who I offend, if I learn of abuse going on, I am causing a stink until the right member of the church gets involved.  I am going to rally financial, legal, and emotional support for the victim. And I will hear no excuses from the abuser.

 

Repent wolf, or be gone. 

 

As I said the church certainly has failed miserably at dealing with the sin of spousal abuse and other kinds of abuses as well, I completely agree sister and the reasons for it go all the way back to Adam........gross sins like stealing, adultery, violence etc......is supposed to be dealt with by the church.....in accordance with the example and principles given in the epistles.  The church is falling away as was prophesied and is as wicked as the world now........tragic but true.  This is why the Lord is calling His people to come out of her now.......she's about to be judged and even now is.  But as the Body of Christ we are to deal with abusers not in anger but in love and firm discipline for their sakes, same as any other sin, in hopes of their restoration, while also helping the victims of their abuse.  Most churches do not function as a Body, as a family (of God) and that's why they leave everything to the "professionals" who are mostly ineffective......whereas there is nothing in the bible about the Body of Christ being run by professionals.  No reason biblically why Godly men in the Body can't go talk to the abusive husband themselves, the way the bible says, if they have been taught at all, and Godly women comfort and encourage the wife.  The reality though, is that hardly anybody has read or understood or been taught what the bible teaches, from the professionals to the pastors to the people in the pews....the church is in a mess.  Funny how the bible is so simple and practical but at the same time we are blind to it unless we look with spiritual eyes.

[bryan]

5 hours ago, TickledPinkinChristWoot! said:

Where did Jesus teach about divorce and remarriage? Not Paul's letters, Jesus himself. 

Laws for divorce and marriage really belong in a separate discussion, but I'll add some notes here.  Let's try to keep the current discussion in this thread focused on the original questions.

 

Divorce for neglect included divorce for abuse, because this was extreme neglect. There was no question about that end of the spectrum of neglect, but what about the other end? What about abandonment, which was merely a kind of passive neglect? This was an uncertain matter, so Paul deals with it. He says to all believers that they may not abandon their partners, and if they have done so, they should return (1 Cor. 7:10-12). In the case of someone who is abandoned by an unbeliever—someone who won't obey the command to return—he says that the abandoned person is "no longer bound."

Divorce is only allowed for a limited number of grounds that are found in the Old Testament and affirmed in the New Testament:

• Adultery (in Deuteronomy 24:1, affirmed by Jesus in Matthew 19[13])

• Emotional and physical neglect (in Exodus 21:10-11[14], affirmed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 7[15])

• Abandonment and abuse (included in neglect, as affirmed in 1 Corinthians 7)

Edited January 1, 2018 by bryan
fixed typos

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let the wicked be wicked still, the unrighteous be unrighteous.

Just cause the other remarries don't mean I will.   I have never been happier just following Christ and His teachings. 

But I fear gravely for many who just use grace as an excuse to honor sin.   NOT YOU dear sister, but many do .

I want to leave us with something paul knew well.      Repentance is not just tears and staying in sin ,  SORROW , GODLY sorrow LEADS TO REPENTANCE.

Now.  notice something paul says .    SO  , if she be married to another man , WHILE her husband lives, she will be called an adulteress.

And no saying I am sorry yet remaining in the new marriage will matter.   She has to leave that new husband or be called an adulteress so long as he does live

it goes that way for the man too.    IF the person who did remarry did so while that first spouse lives.  ADULTERER or RESS and that no adulterer or ess has eternal life .

We have toget serious again.      I am not going to stand before GOD and have to answer why  I did not at least try and warn.  All we have to do is warn .   then its on the other.

Its serious .    I have found something very beautiful.   Their is no joy , nor peace like knowing Christ and if we truly loved HIM, then its HE , HIS sayings

before man wife  or anything .   YET I have found a deeper beauty.  ITS BY THIS LOVE , we see clearly HOW to help the other .   ITS JESUS SAYINGS .   

I'm glad for those who recognize the sin of divorce and remarriage, in a day and age when most ignore the teaching of Jesus and Paul on that.  Now, dear brother, what would you say is some biblical wisdom on how the body of Christ should deal with the sin of spousal abuse in the church.  This is also something that gets ignored.