thomas t Posted February 22, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Hi Scott, I'm thankful that you gave your attention to this thread. On 20.2.2018 at 5:22 PM, ScottA said: The better and simpler answer, is that the scriptures are not of what God or people are doing, but rather a report in real time of what happened "before the foundation of the world" "in the twinkling of an eye." Assigning a mere point of time to the above mentioned Bible verses and calling that a 'report' doesn't answer the question of the title - or why Esau was hated before birth, in my opinion. On 20.2.2018 at 5:22 PM, ScottA said: In other words, Just as "I am"...this is how you "are", since before the foundation of the world: History is His story, and ours. I have difficulty in understanding what you mean here. For me, it 's quite difficult to decode the "just as 'I am'" of your quote. Rather than talking about yourself you could be talking about God, here, making an allusion to one of His names... May I ask you if it would be possible for you to be more precise in describing what you mean next time? So I assume now you were talking about the way God is. So I answer this. I see a difference between the way God is and the way humans are, for example Abraham (John 8:58 ESV): Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Regards, Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottA Posted February 22, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 552 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 104 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 hours ago, thomas t said: Hi Scott, I'm thankful that you gave your attention to this thread. Assigning a mere point of time to the above mentioned Bible verses and calling that a 'report' doesn't answer the question of the title - or why Esau was hated before birth, in my opinion. I have difficulty in understanding what you mean here. For me, it 's quite difficult to decode the "just as 'I am'" of your quote. Rather than talking about yourself you could be talking about God, here, making an allusion to one of His names... May I ask you if it would be possible for you to be more precise in describing what you mean next time? So I assume now you were talking about the way God is. So I answer this. I see a difference between the way God is and the way humans are, for example Abraham (John 8:58 ESV): Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Regards, Thomas Yes, "I am" defines God as timeless, as well as defines the true nature of our existence in God, meaning: rather than the chronological day by day story that is now unfolding as it is all revealed by God, we simply "are." So, when God says that He hated Esau before he was born, it is a translation of what is timeless with God, but played out in the revelation of it in time. For time is a part of the creation, not a part of the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted February 22, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 hours ago, n2thelight said: Title of the thread I understand it as stating that God knows what you will do before you are ever born . This is seen in the fact that God knew Jacob would take hold of Esau's heel before he was ever born . God knowing past , present & future only means that God knew Esau would despise his birthright , before he ever made the choice all by himself to despise the birthright . Our thoughts are not God's thoughts . Not by a long stretch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2018 18 hours ago, thomas t said: Although there is an astonishing similarity between the two verses... the context of Jeremiah 4:23 is entirely different, as I see it. Jeremiah 4:22 is about Jerusalem, as was the wohle chapter 4 up to this verse. Jeremiah 4:29 turns back to Jerusalem, as well. Hence, to me, it doesn't make any sense to say that the passage 4:23-28 suddenly changes to what happened in Gen 1:2. Jerusalem and God's anger about this town, that's what the whole chapter is about, in my opinion. Can't be just about Jerusalem Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said: I understand it as stating that God knows what you will do before you are ever born . This is seen in the fact that God knew Jacob would take hold of Esau's heel before he was ever born . God knowing past , present & future only means that God knew Esau would despise his birthright , before he ever made the choice all by himself to despise the birthright . Our thoughts are not God's thoughts . Not by a long stretch That's the part I can't agree with,to just say God know's everything.There's no purpose if He does.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2018 You all say we were not with God before birth An aborted baby,what do they return to Heaven as?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2018 Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." What does the above verse mean to you all?Who were the stars For real,that verse don't bring your mind back to the below? Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Hi N2thelight, On 23.2.2018 at 6:11 AM, n2thelight said: You all say we were not with God before birth ... before conception. Some people mix up conception and birth.... The Bible is full of references to personhood before birth, as I see it, for instance Psalms 58:4. But I like your idea of aborted babies going to heaven.... On 23.2.2018 at 6:25 AM, n2thelight said: What does the above verse mean to you all?Who were the stars All I can do is speak for myself: in my opinion the stars are just stars. The simple interpretations are the best, I think. On 23.2.2018 at 6:08 AM, n2thelight said: Can't be just about Jerusalem Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light." I agree in that it's at least an allusion to Gen. chapter one. But Jeremiah is about Jerusalem. So: Jeremiah talking about Jerusalem makes an allusion to how the earth looked like in Gen 1:2? Why not. Maybe God was so disappointed at that point that he recalls the stage when the earth was void. Regards, Thomas Edit 27.2.: oh, I note that I misunderstood the first quote. Let me clarify: Noone here, as I understand it, rules out that we existed (and therefore were with God) before conception. People are saying *Bible remains silent* on this, as I understand it. Edited February 27, 2018 by thomas t clarification, see 'Edit' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted February 23, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2018 17 hours ago, n2thelight said: On 2/22/2018 at 4:09 PM, Unfailing Presence said: I understand it as stating that God knows what you will do before you are ever born . This is seen in the fact that God knew Jacob would take hold of Esau's heel before he was ever born . God knowing past , present & future only means that God knew Esau would despise his birthright , before he ever made the choice all by himself to despise the birthright . Our thoughts are not God's thoughts . Not by a long stretch That's the part I can't agree with,to just say God know's everything.There's no purpose if He does.... That is funny because for me to know that God knows everything including the time of my death is a Harbor of trust for me , that gives me all my purpose in life . Perfect peace is the anchor that comes from knowing the He who knows the secrets of the universe hears my small voice when I have communion with Him . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas t Posted February 24, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) Hi Scott, On 22.2.2018 at 5:43 PM, ScottA said: "I am" defines God as timeless, as well as defines the true nature of our existence in God, meaning: rather than the chronological day by day story that is now unfolding as it is all revealed by God, we simply "are." So, when God says that He hated Esau before he was born, it is a translation of what is timeless with God, but played out in the revelation of it in time. For time is a part of the creation, not a part of the kingdom. Yeah, I know this theology is popular. I personally prefer an explanation model in which God makes himself *comprehensible*, as in Daniel 9:22. To issue a curse *before* the wrongdoing, who would understand that? Of course, God stands outside time.... However, he values relationships with us humans high, as can be seen in the Garden of Eden with Adam+ Eve. So he wants to be understood - even by people not intelligent enough to think different and sophisticated time models that seek to explain the timing of God's actions, I think. All humans could understand a chronologic line of actions, but a mixture of past, present and future is hard to understand, I think. Furthermore, it seems that God likes order *when he takes action*. This is my impression when I read the first chapters of Genesis (the creation). Order implies chronology, in my opinion. Jacob and Esau were too young in the womb to make lasting decisions, this is my interpretation even in lights of Psalms 58:4. Regards, Thomas Edited February 24, 2018 by thomas t grammar in the sentence "time models ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.7803ec9e3f1e9eeba0a93e6ebdacb0e3.jpg)
Recommended Posts