Still Alive Posted March 24, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2018 Just now, shiloh357 said: The rooster crowed. Secondary details don't change the story or its historical core. In the same way, the fact that each Gospel also mentions different women visiting the tomb doesn't change the facts of the events recorded therein. Each writer writes from his perspective and that is not circumvented by the Holy Spirit. The fact that each writer contains different secondary details supports the authenticity of the events they record. But that is really more of inerrancy issue than a literal interpretation issue. I thought you took the bible literally. Is it once or twice? And with the exception of that last line, we are in complete agreement. I also don't believe the churches are literal lamp stands, or Jesus is a literal lamb or the second death is a literal lake of fire. And I believe the death spoken of regarding sin is spiritual death, not the death of the meat I occupy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 25 minutes ago, Still Alive said: I thought you took the bible literally. Is it once or twice? It is both. One thing to keep in mind is that you are not dealing with a literal interpretation issue. It is an inerrancy issue. You are dealing with the historicity of the story and two accounts that have different secondary details. In law enforcement, two eye-witnesses to an event have different details because of different vantage points an so you have two entirely truthful accounts, but different details. This is expected in law enforcement and adds credibility to both witnesses. Both accounts say the rooster crowed. Neither story are in contradiction with each other. Details can always be reconciled with additional information. That is not an issue to be concerned about. Quote I also don't believe the churches are literal lamp stands, or Jesus is a literal lamb or the second death is a literal lake of fire. You are confusing "literal" with "face-value." Jesus said "I am the door of the sheep." Jesus is not a piece of wood with hinges. We understand metaphorical devices and other figurative literary devices and how they assist in obtaining the literal meaning of the passage. As for the lake of fire, God doesn't qualify that, as it is not metaphorical in its usage. He means exactly what He says. Quote And I believe the death spoken of regarding sin is spiritual death, not the death of the meat I occupy. The problem with that notion is that when sin is eradicated in the future, so is both physical and spiritual death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 24, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: It is both. One thing to keep in mind is that you are not dealing with a literal interpretation issue. It is an inerrancy issue. You are dealing with the historicity of the story and two accounts that have different secondary details. In law enforcement, two eye-witnesses to an event have different details because of different vantage points an so you have two entirely truthful accounts, but different details. This is expected in law enforcement and adds credibility to both witnesses. Both accounts say the rooster crowed. Neither story are in contradiction with each other. Details can always be reconciled with additional information. That is not an issue to be concerned about. You are confusing "literal" with "face-value." Jesus said "I am the door of the sheep." Jesus is not a piece of wood with hinges. We understand metaphorical devices and other figurative literary devices and how they assist in obtaining the literal meaning of the passage. As for the lake of fire, God doesn't qualify that, as it is not metaphorical in its usage. He means exactly what He says. The problem with that notion is that when sin is eradicated in the future, so is both physical and spiritual death. I guess we disagree more than I thought. Out of respect for both of us I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 24, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,166 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Still Alive said: When the bible is silent on a thing, I believe we are free to discover what we can. And as long as it doesn't contradict what the bible actually says, we are free to speculate. Often, however, it does contradict some people's interpretations of what the bible says. The most rewarding aspect of walking with God is that He will lead you into all truth... LEAD being the key word in how we walk with Him. This means waiting upon God in the only way He leads: John 16:13-15 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV When we understand the first chapter of John that The Eternal Living Word 'Jesus' The Christ is made objective to us through written Word and Living by The Holy Spirit... sealing this saying in completeness of grammatical instruct to us 2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. KJV You see satan wants to get anyone reliant upon anything as to created substance -for in that he has power to deceive and influence greatly the soul of man... as you indicate in your verbiage you look for truth outside of Scripture to aid in possibly a fuller understanding of The Scripture and you do this by disregarding the 2 Timothy passage above. Your initial direction in statement is outside of Scriptures we are free to speculate but there again that is outside of the leading of Scripture Luke 1:51 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. KJV Rom 1:21-23 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. KJV Eph 4:17-20 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; KJV This all because of disobedience to the leading of The Holy Spirit through The Scriptures only 2 Cor 10:5 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; KJV The foundation of God 'IS' His Word combined with The Holy Spirit and it 'IS' the light that we use to see in this darkness as we cannot use the darkness to see into the light! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 25, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Sojourner414 said: One thing to consider in this matter: nowhere in Scripture do any of the Gospels say "The rooster shall crow ONLY once". If the rooster crowed twice, then it crowed, period. Jesus saying "before a rooster crows" doesn't mean that it didn't crow a first time before Peter's denials. Actually, I disagree. If I say, I'm going to wake up "before the alarm goes off", and It goes off, waking me, and I hit the snooze button, and after ten minutes it goes off again, I was not truthful when I said I would wake before the alarm goes off. And If I said that I would wake up before the alarm goes off twice, and the same thing happens, I told the truth. If one take the words literally, they contradict. But my whole point is that that is not how the bible works. The point was that before morning was done, Peter would vehemently deny Christ. And he did. I read the whole thing that way. And in some cases it is even less literal than that. The churches are not lampstands, but the point is made. Christ is not a lamb, but he was slain as a lamb would go to slaughter, allowing them to kill him. And the second death is not a lake of fire, but the picture fits. Anything thrown into a lake of fire would die and be consumed. It all makes the point that needs to be made. I'm just using the rooster crowing meme as a textbook case of why it is dangerous to take the wording in the bible completely literally. It is the point being made that counts, not the specific words. And this is especially true with english bibles because they are ALL translations. And all translations are also interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visitor#88 Posted March 25, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 73 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/06/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2018 On 3/19/2018 at 3:14 PM, shiloh357 said: While Genesis speaks only of human death, which includes both spiritual and physical sickness/disease death, the Bible in other places indicates that animal death is a result of the fall of man. Human and animal death did not exist prior to Adam's fall and was not engineered into creation by God. We know this in part because pain, disease, sickness and death, of any sort, will not be part of the new earth and new heavens when sin is eradicated and the curse of the fall is reversed. Really? What do you think Birds of Prey eat ? As in Eagles, hawks, vultures etc. I will give you a hint. Those birds don't eat veggies. Be well~ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 25, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2018 On 3/24/2018 at 12:19 AM, enoob57 said: your failing to see the theological issue of death before sin... God says Rom 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: KJV The fact that death had not entered the existing world till this point... period.... and we must bring our thought process under this authority. Dating methods are as of now faith based on interpretation of results https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/dating-methods/ You can throw you Bible away if pre-Genesis exist... because you have God sanctifying death a direct result of sin. Well I'm not going to throw my Bible away, Steven. Yes, death only entered the world when Adam and Eve rebelled. That is completely Biblical. My point is it entered OUR world. We don't know what God did before He created us because He has not told us. But He will down the road a bit. So even if there WAS a world before this one, and I'm not convinced there was, it doesn't matter to us. We began with Genesis and that's all that's important. I never figured you to be a debator but, actually, you are doing pretty well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted March 25, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.11 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, visitor#88 said: Really? What do you think Birds of Prey eat ? As in Eagles, hawks, vultures etc. I will give you a hint. Those birds don't eat veggies. Be well~ How is your comment an answer to what Shiloh posted? Hint; it isn't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 2 hours ago, visitor#88 said: Really? What do you think Birds of Prey eat ? As in Eagles, hawks, vultures etc. I will give you a hint. Those birds don't eat veggies. Be well~ Prior to the fall, there was no predatory behavior. The animals we see has predators today either were not predators before the fall, or are a current species that did not even exist at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 25, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,166 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,444 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 25, 2018 5 hours ago, MorningGlory said: Well I'm not going to throw my Bible away, Steven. Yes, death only entered the world when Adam and Eve rebelled. That is completely Biblical. My point is it entered OUR world. We don't know what God did before He created us because He has not told us. But He will down the road a bit. So even if there WAS a world before this one, and I'm not convinced there was, it doesn't matter to us. We began with Genesis and that's all that's important. I never figured you to be a debator but, actually, you are doing pretty well! I learned everything I know from you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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