I've changed my mind. I now believe the "earth" is 6k years old

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Still Alive said:

Then I  guess that when he says the wages of sin is death, you believe that the lost die, rather than live in eternal torment. Because I take the bible literally, that is what I believe anyway.

No, I understand that "death" in the Bible, in spiritual terms doesn't mean "cessation of existence."   I understand that verse literally in the light of what the Bible says about spiritual death.

You have no grasp on literal interpretation.   You have a very selective approach to taking the Bible literally and that is partly due to your failure to understand a concept you are trying to use.

[Still Alive]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:14 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Still Alive.

Yes, but no more than 10,000 years or so, unless you buy into the hypothesis that the earth's magnetic field "flip-flops" poles. That's because the earth's magnetic field has been decaying for as long as they've been able to measure it! The hyperbolic curve they've been able to trace from the readings would place the earth's magnetic field to that of the sun 10,000 years ago! Beyond that, we're talking about that of a neutron star!

But, it's a DECAY rate, a hyperbolic curve. Some have suggested that it is simply the lower, right quadrant of a sine wave and suggest a repeating pattern; thus, the "flip-flop" of the poles. However, it's the ONE dating method that has been measurable the longest and it's the ONE dating method the evolutionists wish to ignore or change!

I did not know about that. I need to look it up. Thanks!

[Still Alive]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

No, I understand that "death" in the Bible, in spiritual terms doesn't mean "cessation of existence."  

Well, yeah. I'm talking about the second death, of course. The one that DOES lead to the cessation of existence. The first death is only the cessation of existence of the body. The soul gets death at the second death. At least, according to the bible Actually, even death itself is destroyed and ceases to exist. It's all about that lake of fire thing.

[Still Alive]

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Cessation of existence??

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
(Rev 14:9-11)
 

So, if a lost person dies before that period, they're good to go (permanently)?

 

BTW, a discussion on that very scripture:

http://rethinkinghell.com/2017/04/a-primer-on-revelation-149-11/

[Still Alive]

21 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

The Second Death is not a cessation of existence.  The Second Death is separation from God for eternity.

Same difference. Nothing can exist outside the presence of God. He is omnipresent.

To not be present with God is to not exist.

Colossians 1:17

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Cobalt1959 and Still Alive.

Guys, always GO BACK TO THE BASICS. The definition of "soul" is an "air-breathing person." What breathes air? YOUR BODY does!

Therefore, Cobalt, normal death IS the "cessation of existence," but only temporarily.

On the other hand, Still Alive, why is one resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment just to be annihilated again? No, the Lake of Fire is FOREVER! And, it's NOT a "separation from God for eternity." It's a separating from God's LOVE AND FAVOR for eternity. Who's doing the punishing in the Lake of Fire and Sulfur? It's GOD!

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yeshua` said this:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And, ...

Mark 9:42-48 (KJV)

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

By the way, the word for "hell" in this last passage is "ge-enna." (Some people write "gehenna.") This is the Valley of Hinoam, where the kings of Israel would set up their judgment seats and pronounce sentence against criminals. It's also the likely place for the Messiah's Judgment Seat during the Millennium when He is finally Israel's King and the world's Emperor.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Still Alive]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

By the way, the word for "hell" in this last passage is "ge-enna." (Some people write "gehenna.") This is the Valley of Hinoam, where the kings of Israel would set up their judgment seats and pronounce sentence against criminals. It's also the likely place for the Messiah's Judgment Seat during the Millennium when He is finally Israel's King and the world's Emperor.

It was both a garbage dump and where the kings sacrificed babies by burning them alive.  It paints a very bleak picture.

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If it were not for this passage and perhaps one other in Revelation (See section on Revelation 14:9-11), what is now the traditional view of hell may never have developed. The beast and false prophet are seen thrown into the lake of fire at the onset of the millennium (Rev 19:20) and are still there a thousand years later when the devil joins them and they are tormented forever. After rising from the dead the unsaved are thrown in, joining their fate, and consistency would seem to demand that they, too, are tormented forever. The challenge to conditionalism again seems obvious.

Other equally obvious factors, however, often go unnoticed or unmentioned. First, it should be obvious that the vision given to John consists of highly symbolic, apocalyptic imagery and must be interpreted carefully. As discussed above, the imagery of eternal torment may not communicate literal eternal torment any more than a seven-headed, ten-horned beast (Rev 13:1) ridden by a prostitute with the name of a city on her head (Rev 17:3-6) communicates a future reality like something pictured in a horror movie.

Secondly, it should be obvious that death and Hades are abstractions, not concrete entities, and are thus incapable of experiencing torment at all. And yet in this image they’re thrown into the same lake of fire as the others after being emptied of their dead (Rev 20:13-14). Most traditionalists acknowledge that this means death and Hades will be no more, yet they nevertheless argue that even though the resurrected lost are not explicitly said to be tormented eternally in the lake of fire their fate must be the same as the others thrown into the fire. But consistency demands that everything thrown into the fire experiences the same fate, so that of the devil, beast, false prophet, and risen wicked should be annihilation in reality, even though some of them are depicted in the imagery as eternally tormented.

Thirdly, not only do we have the Old Testament uses of the imagery to rely on (see section on Revelation 14:9-11), but the book of Revelation in many cases interprets the images for us! John’s vision is sometimes interpreted for him (Rev 17:7), and John appears to explain the imagery of the lake of fire itself by calling it "the second death" (Rev 20:14), the same interpretation offered by “he who sits on the throne” (Rev 21:8). So the imagery does not symbolize everlasting suffering but death—a permanent, irreversible death of body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Furthermore, the divine interpreter of imagery, foretelling the same events, explained to Daniel that what the beast experiences in the imagery symbolizes the permanent annihilation of the dominion of the kingdom it represents (Daniel 7:11, 25).

Lastly, the symbolic nature of the vision recorded in the book of Revelation is such that it must not be the foundation upon which we build our doctrine of hell, even though it is arguably used in just that fashion by traditionalists. When we allow the divine interpreters of Daniel’s and John’s visions to explain the imagery to us, we can see that it communicates annihilation. The dominion of the kingdom represented by the beast comes to an end. Death and Hades come to an end. The devil and his angels will come to an end. The unsaved will likewise come to an end, a permanent destruction of body and soul.

Note: The above is a cut and paste from here: http://rethinkinghell.com/explore/

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

Yeshua` said this:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This parable is actually one of the proofs that the lost are destroyed (dead - which is the opposite of alive). Everyone listening to Jesus, and everyone reading this, knows that weeds that are being burned to not suffer forever in the fire, but are, in fact, burned up. This is true even if the fire is gas powered and keeps going long after all the weeds thrown into it are long gone.

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Mark 9:42-48 (KJV)

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm (gnawing anguish) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate.

The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context. In Isaiah 66:24 that context is the consumption of corpses. So their worm, it is promised, will not die before fully consuming the bodies. And like other tenacious scavengers that are difficult to prevent from fully consuming their corpses (Deuteronomy 28:26; Jeremiah 7:33), the irresistible and complete consumption of the dead by the worms makes their shame permanent and everlasting.

And a fire which “is not quenched” is not a fire that will never go out. The primary meaning of quench is “to extinguish.” The biblical picture here is of a fire that cannot be quenched, a fire which cannot be prevented from fully consuming its fuel (2 Kings 22:17; Isaiah 34:10; Jeremiah 7:20; 17:27; Ezekiel 20:47).

Note: The above is cut and pasted from here: http://rethinkinghell.com/explore/