The timing of the 6th seal

[Steve Conley]

7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Greetings, and thank you for post! The day of the Lord is not referring to just one day, context is important here...

Rapture - 1Th 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Second Coming - 2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Earth - 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

God bless. ?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

That the day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period, I understand well. The day begins at Christ's arrival, at His parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world (Rev 1:7), resurrects the dead in Christ, changes the surviving elect, and then raptures the resurrected and changed to be with Him in the clouds. However, that is only the beginning of the day of the Lord. It shall continue to be the day of the Lord throughout His eternal reign. The first portion of His day is characterized by His wrath poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will have been persecuting the church and Israel.

Hallelujah

[Heb 13:8]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The day begins at Christ's arrival, at His parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world (Rev 1:7), resurrects the dead in Christ, changes the surviving elect, and then raptures the resurrected and changed to be with Him in the clouds.

Are you post trib? What scripture points to that?

[Steve Conley]

3 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Are you post trib? What scripture points to that?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

No, I'm not a post-tribulationist, however, I do recognize that Jesus, Paul, and John all place the catching up of the saints after the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation.

1) The day begins at Christ's arrival

There is only one second coming (parousia). Parousia means arrival and continuing presence. It is not the same as erchomi which means approaching. There are not two future comings of Christ, there is only one.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Act 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ's arrival to receive us unto Himself is the very day that he begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving who will have been persecuting us. The day of our rescue is the day His wrath begins.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The church will rest from persecution when Christ is revealed taking vengeance upon our persecutors

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2) At His parousia

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

I'll get to the rest later when I return home.

Hallelujah

[Heb 13:8]

3 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

No, I'm not a post-tribulationist, however, I do recognize that Jesus, Paul, and John all place the catching up of the saints after the unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation.

What are your thoughts on the word "harpazo" in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 and also the word "loipos" in Rev 12:17? It seems that God is pre-trib. God bless.

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Are you post trib? What scripture points to that?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Let me continue with the Scriptural justification for my statements.

3) When He reveals Himself to all the world (Rev 1:7)

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1Co 1:7  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:13  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

4) Resurrects the dead in Christ

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

5) Changes the surviving elect

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

6) Then raptures the resurrected and changed to be with Him in the clouds.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

All of this and more takes place upon the day of His arrival.

Hallelujah

[Heb 13:8]

39 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

All of this and more takes place upon the day of His arrival.

Hallelujah

Thank you for posts! ?

Question: What are your thoughts on the word "harpazo" in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 and also the word "loipos" in Rev 12:17? It seems that God is pre-trib. God bless.

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

What are your thoughts on the word "harpazo" in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 and also the word "loipos" in Rev 12:17? It seems that God is pre-trib. God bless.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The woman is Israel, Satan is the Dragon, and the child caught up to Heaven is Christ. The remnant are those believers who remain, those who were not hidden, fed and protected in the wilderness.

I was a pretribulationist for 40 years and taught it for 30, until I was confronted with some very simple and explicit statements of the Scriptures that were entirely irreconcilable with the pre-trib model.

I fully believe, what the Scriptures say concerning the fact that God will not pour out His wrath upon His own. (Why do pre-tribbers believe that God's faithful martyrs experience God's wrath?)

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The church which is represented by the word "us" in 1Thes 5:9-10 is the same church that is represented by the words "you" and "us" in 2Thes 1:6-7.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

We will face persecution until Jesus comes, and the last generation will face unprecedented persecution.

One of the things that I failed to recognize, that led to the false assumption that the rapture was before the great tribulation, is that the thlipsis (tribulation) is not the wrath of God, but is persecution. In the context of Christ's return, thlipsis is particularly the persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. Paul tell us that we are appointed unto thlipsis. Jesus said that we would have thlipsis. The earth dwellers hated Jesus and persecuted Jesus, they will hate us and persecute us. In the context of events which precede Christ's parousia, Jesus said that we would face violent persecution.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Jesus said that the persecution will be so severe that it will be unparalleled in nature and that the period of this severe persecution will need to be cut short to save some of us alive upon the earth.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The martyrs under the alter that John sees at the opening of the 5th seal are told that vengeance (that is God's wrath) upon their murderers would have to wait until more of their brethren are martyred.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Martyrs are the focus of what John sees right prior to the opening of the 6th seal at which point he sees the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Another explicit statement of the Holy Scriptures makes it clear that the seventieth week in its entirety is not the day of the Lord. In fact, the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the great tribulation is cut short at some point in the second half of the week. Joel says that a cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

John witnesses this sign at the opening of the 6th seal.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the 6th seal is open.

These truths are irreconcilable with the pre-trib model, therefore it must be in error.

It appears that God isn't a pretribulationist.

Hallelujah

 

 

 

 

[Heb 13:8]

5 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The woman is Israel, Satan is the Dragon, and the child caught up to Heaven is Christ. The remnant are those believers who remain, those who were not hidden, fed and protected in the wilderness.

No, Rev 12:1-5 is in reference to corporate entities and is a sign that came to pass in the heavens on 9/23/17. The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:2, 9 is not harpazo, it's analambanó and epairó.

Israel - Woman
Dragon - Antichrist system in the 70th week (Rev 13-17)
Child - The body of Christ raptured

The remnant I believe are the gleanings (tribulation saints). The main harvest (church saints) are not the gleanings.

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was a pretribulationist for 40 years and taught it for 30, until I was confronted with some very simple and explicit statements of the Scriptures that were entirely irreconcilable with the pre-trib model.

Ok, but Stellarium software I believe came out in 2001, and we weren't aware of Rev 12:1-5 sign in the heavens until around 2012.

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(Why do pre-tribbers believe that God's faithful martyrs experience God's wrath?) 

Well they don't. The trib saints experience Satan's wrath.

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Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The church which is represented by the word "us" in 1Thes 5:9-10 is the same church that is represented by the words "you" and "us" in 2Thes 1:6-7.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

You sure do like to quote Thess. You are aware that the word harpazo in Rev 12:5 is also in 1 Thess 4:17 right?

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Martyrs are the focus of what John sees right prior to the opening of the 6th seal at which point he sees the cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival initiating the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Or maybe the 6th seal is opened at the end of the 70th week at His Second coming. The 7th seal is opened at the AofD. The reason God does this is to confuse the devil? Just a thought.

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Another explicit statement of the Holy Scriptures makes it clear that the seventieth week in its entirety is not the day of the Lord.

Correct, for 70th week there is a beginning and an end reference to the day of the Lord.

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In fact, the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the great tribulation is cut short at some point in the second half of the week. Joel says that a cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

No, the day of the Lord begins at rapture, 1 Thess 5:1-11. God bless.

[Steve Conley]

23 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the day of the Lord begins at rapture, 1 Thess 5:1-11. God bless. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

You are correct, the day of the Lord does begin at the rapture. You are incorrect in thinking that the rapture happens before the sixth seal is opened. It happens at Christ's parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world, following the cosmic sign and great earthquake that John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal.

Hallelujah

[Heb 13:8]

1 minute ago, Steve Conley said:

You are incorrect in thinking that the rapture happens before the sixth seal is opened. It happens at Christ's parousia, when He reveals Himself to all the world, following the cosmic sign and great earthquake that John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal.

No, Rev 12:1-5 is in reference to corporate entities and is a sign that came to pass in the heavens on 9/23/17. The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:2, 9 is not harpazo, it's analambanó and epairó.

Israel - Woman
Dragon - Antichrist system in the 70th week (Rev 13-17)
Child - The body of Christ raptured

The remnant I believe are the gleanings (tribulation saints). The main harvest (church saints) are not the gleanings.

It's time to wake up Steve.