The Restrainer.....Who....When

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I'll try to answer all of your questions.   But I need to put things in an ordered array so that you can add to the picture that you are beginning to see.  I will use a numbering of days to help with your understanding.   

Keep in mind that the Olivet Discourse in Matthew is about the signs that the children of Israel will see from the perspective of them dwelling safely in their land.   This is in contrast to Luke's account that is given to the church, essentially from afar.  What I mean is,  is that they essentially tell the same story(account) where Matthew tells is what the "Jews" will see THE ABOMINATION PUF DESOLATION.  Whereas, the rest of the world (non -Israel) will see Jerusalem "compasses with armies".  We can speculate all we want,  but only those who are dwelling in the land at that time will see and know what the AoD really is.   I can't tell you specifically what it is,  but I can tell you what it isn't.   Paul was absolutely not referring to it in 2 Thess 2.  If you get hung up on this,  your further understanding will be quite limited.   The rest of the world (non - Jews)  will probably never know what the AoD really is,  because only they will see it.   With all that let me begin.   Note: according to Luke,  the world will see Jerusalem surrounded by armies when the people of the land see the AoD. 

Day 1.  (Of the 70th week) It will begin with sacrifices resuming on temple mount with rebuilding of the temple to begin (probably)  simultaneously.   It will take about 2.5 years to complete the temple. 

Day 1285.  Great tribulation begins. 

Day 1290.  Sacrifices cease and 6th seal is opened.

Day 1335. 7th trumpet sounds.   Blessed is he who comes to the 1335th day.  This is the blessing of Abraham when the saints and prophets are resurrected.  Let me now give you some scriptures that pertain to "that day".   The Assyrian is the one who leads the attack on Jerusalem.   He is also the little horn and is the beast from the sea of Rev 13.

Verse list:    
Isa 10:20-27 KJV    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction. And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt. And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

When you look at Gideon and the Midianites, you find that the Lord accomplished a great slaughter at the rock of Oreb.  He caused then to kill one another.   The result will be the death of the Assyrian. 
Isa 10:33-34 KJV    Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled. And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.

[Isa 11:1 is the very next verse].
Isa 11:1 KJV    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

This next thought,  you may have to read it several times before it sinks in.   There are 2 figures here in Isa 11, and not just one.   The first is a descendent of Jesse and the second is a descendent of Jesse AND he is a descendent of Jesse's descendent.   This first one is called the "rod of the stem of Jesse" in verse 1 and is the root of Jesse in verse 10.  Who is this "root of Jesse"?

I*[[Mat 1:6]] KJV* And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;...[skipping to...]

*[[Mat 1:11]] KJV* And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: 12. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat SALATHIEL; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

It is none other than Zerubabel, governor of Judah when the exiles returned from Babylon to rebuild the temple:

*[[Hag 1:1]] KJV* In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto ZERUBABEL the SON  of SHEALTIEL, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,

Look what it says about him: 

*[[Hag 2:2]] KJV* Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying,...

*[[Hag 2:6]] KJV* For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;....

*[[Hag 2:9]] KJV* The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.....

*[[Hag 2:21]] KJV* Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; *[[Hag 2:22]] KJV* And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.  *[[Hag 2:23]] KJV* In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

DID YOU CATCH THAT LAST PART?   Zerubbabel (the descendent of Jesse)  is the signet (the banner) that will stand in that day.  Look also in the book of Zechariah: 

Verse list:    
Zec 4:6-10 KJV    Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Isa 11:10-12 KJV    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse (Zerubbabel) , which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

I know that I am giving you a mountain of things to try to understand,  but do you see what is going on in all of these things?  Zerubbabel will be one of a multitude of saints that will be resurrected at the 7th trumpet.  Having the plummet in his hand means that he will be one of chief engineers to build the Lord's temple in the newly established kingdom of God.   The building of this MOST HOLY temple will be a sign to the whole world of the return of the king to rule the world.   Some will accept it and rejoice.   Many will not.  It will restore the hopes of the children of Israel.   After the days of trouble that they just experienced,  they will feel like a severely disciplined child and unworthy of God's immeasurable grace.   But God will bring a great time of refreshing. 

Verse list:    
Isa 66:12-16 KJV    For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her [Jerusalem] like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Here I answer your question about when.   We are still talking about Day 1335.

And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

The 1260 day events of Rev 11 and Rev 12, will begin sometime between Day 1290 and Day 1295.  One of the 2 events will end on Tishri 10, the Day of Atonement,  and the other will end on Tishri 15, the beginning of the feast of Tabernacles. [3.5 years later].

I have probably given you more than you can digest without a lot of thought.   Think on these things for a while.   And afterwards I will try to answer some specific questions that you might have. 

Blessings

The PuP 

The PuP, I am truly sorry I asked.  Sorry, but when someone has day numbers inside the week - other than day 1260 - I think they are interpreting scripture wrong. I am convinced that the 1290 day is OUTSIDE the 70th week, and extends the last 1260 days another 30 days. 

Try as I might, I don't see any resurrection at the 7th trumpet. I think you are ad libbing that. 

I see the 7th trumpet as marking the midpoint.  There is no resurrection then.  Neither do I think you can move that 7th trumpet to the end of the week as so many others imagine they can do.

I think the Old Testament saints will be resurrected on the last day of the 70th week. They will be raptured to heaven for the marriage and supper which will take place there - in heaven.

In the end, we will know. 

In other words, I disagree with almost everything you posted. 

[ARGOSY]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Twice in one day.  That is a new one - never heard it before. And you imagine the feast is in the clouds? 

Well, we will wait and see. I am not the kind of guy that will look you up and tell you how wrong you were! ?

Lol the feast is in heaven. Although lying on a fluffy cloud among angels playing harps, while eating grapes sounds good too ?

[ARGOSY]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Twice in one day.  That is a new one - never heard it before. And you imagine the feast is in the clouds? 

Well, we will wait and see. I am not the kind of guy that will look you up and tell you how wrong you were! ?

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,     and his bride has made herself ready.
⁸ Fine linen, bright and clean,   was given her to wear.”   (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”   I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.  He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.¹The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

See the bride has the feast, then in the next event the bride is in the armies of heaven. You may see a seven year gap between the feast and then the heavenly army, or maybe a seven year gap between the rapture and then having a feast.  

Edited March 29, 2019 by ARGOSY

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Firstly,  you don't believe in the coming of the kingdom.   Then you do.   Now(?) I'm not sure where you stand.   Just for clarity,  you seem to think that I believe that the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of that 70th week.   If that is what you believe,  it's no wonder why you disagree.   Your view of things is so wrapped up in what you currently believe,  that when scriptures are presented that you do not understand how they could possibly for into what you currently believe,  rather than calling into question WHAT YOU NOW BELIEVE,  you choose to call into question what you don't believe.   I believe you don't really know what you believe. 

 So,  when the 7th trumpet sounds and great voices declare that "the kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdom of God",  is the kingdom, [today]

1. Here now,

2. Not here now, [coming]  OR,

3. Both?

Explain your answer with something other than "I signed a contract..."

Blessings

The PuP 

Be encouraged! You have convinced me the Kingdom DOES start at the 7th trumpet. But absent the king. Finally something we can agree on. 

I know what I believe and I know WHY I believe it. Therefore I have to have REAL scriptural proof to change.  You convinced me to change on the start of the Kingdom. It seems right that when He GETS the kingdom, it starts right there, but without the king present. 

However (you knew there would be a however) the Old Testament saints must be resurrected (probably with the beheaded) , the week must end,Babylon must be destroyed, The marriage and supper take place in heaven, Jesus must come, the Beast taken, the parable of the tares take place, the sheep and goat judgment take place - and finally, Rev. 20:4 takes place.

Did I miss something?  

Now, please tell me how His kingdom starting at the 7th trumpet will make any difference to the church?  Since He does not take possession until after the marriage and supper in heaven, what difference? Why was this so important to you? 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,     and his bride has made herself ready.
⁸ Fine linen, bright and clean,   was given her to wear.”   (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”   I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.  He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.¹The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

See the bride has the feast, then in the next event the bride is in the armies of heaven. You may see a seven year gap between the feast and then the heavenly army, or maybe a seven year gap between the rapture and then having a feast.  

Where are the people in 19:6 - the great multitude? Of course, they are IN HEAVEN. 

In verse 7 the marriage came. 

Now notice verse 9: It is about the marriage SUPPER. The supper does not come until the marriage is completed. In other words, these things take plain IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. There is simply NO MENTION of a return trip and another trip down.  This is a classic example were TWO fit better than ONE. Make Paul's coming a separate coming and you will see the marriage and supper won't require a return trip that for some reason is not shown.

Yes, I see a 7 plus year gap between Paul's rapture and this wedding feast - all the events starting with the 6th seal and ending with the destruction of Babylon as recorded in chapters 17 & 18 and the first of 19. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Lol the feast is in heaven. Although lying on a fluffy cloud among angels playing harps, while eating grapes sounds good too ?

Believe it or not, someone in some thread on some forum insisted that the marriage supper was in the clouds. Worse yet, another insisted the marriage supper was the birds feasting on dead bodies!  

[ARGOSY]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Where are the people in 19:6 - the great multitude? Of course, they are IN HEAVEN. 

In verse 7 the marriage came. 

Now notice verse 9: It is about the marriage SUPPER. The supper does not come until the marriage is completed. In other words, these things take plain IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. There is simply NO MENTION of a return trip and another trip down.  This is a classic example were TWO fit better than ONE. Make Paul's coming a separate coming and you will see the marriage and supper won't require a return trip that for some reason is not shown.

Yes, I see a 7 plus year gap between Paul's rapture and this wedding feast - all the events starting with the 6th seal and ending with the destruction of Babylon as recorded in chapters 17 & 18 and the first of 19. 

I agree that Rev 19 isn't a chapter about the timing of the rapture. It doesn't mention how or when they got to the feast.  So neither of us can prove previous events from Rev 19. We need to look elsewhere for that.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

I agree that Rev 19 isn't a chapter about the timing of the rapture. It doesn't mention how or when they got to the feast.  So neither of us can prove previous events from Rev 19. We need to look elsewhere for that.

Ha! Finally something we can agree on.  ?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Good.  I would agree with you that the church is not here at the 7th trumpet when the kingdom begins.   Can you now take the next step and believe that this 7th trumpet is the same  as Paul's LAST trumpet when he equates this to inheriting the kingdom? 

Verse list:    
1Co 15:50-52 KJV    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

??? [I know you should know what my next question will be?]

Blessings

The PuP 

Absolutely NOT: Paul's last trumpet is of a different series and at a different time - over 3.5 years previous to the 7th trumpet in Revelation. And Paul's last trump will come just before God's wrath begins. And that is WAY BEFORE the 7th trumpet. 

You can ask, but be prepared for the same kind of answer. When any theory starts messing with John's chronology, I know it is flaky!

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Okay.  At the 7th trumpet we have: 

1. Kingdom established, 

2. Jesus not present, 

3. Church not present, 

4. Not the last trumpet, 

5. OT saints not yet raised. 

It almost sounds like we have a kingdom with no one to occupy it.   Who are its occupants?   And can you support your answer with scripture? 

Blessings

The PuP 

P.s.   I realize that a 7th trumpet kingdom is new to your thinking,  so take your time in answering. 

Now you are beginning to catch on! Good job. If you had asked where in Revelation does one millennium end and the new one start - I would have said at the 7th trumpet.  

Some people imagine that ALL the Old Testament saints were raised when Jesus rose. I don't.

Some people imagine the Old Testament saints are raised with the church. I don't.  

From Matthew 27 I came to understand that when people long dead are raised, that causes an earthquake.  I then looked for the first earthquake in Revelation to see if that would fit Paul's rapture. I think it does. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused when God raises the dead in Christ. They are buried around the world, so it is going to be a worldwide earthquake. 

Then I looked "on the last day" for an earthquake to point to the raising of the Old Testament saints. I am convinced that is what causes the world's worst ever quake at the 7th vial. These will included those from before the flood!  The atoms of people's bodies who died before the flood might be scattered for thousands of miles. It is going to cause one incredible, "ginormous" earthquake when God brings the particles of those bodies together again.  I suspect, maybe on the quark level, that the particles that once made up Job's body has his name on them - and God will for that body back exactly as it was when he died - but then change it into a resurrection body. The earth will shake so violently that the mountains shake down into the earth. 

With your points 1 through 5 above, you can see why I don't think it is so important that the kingdom begins at the 7th trumpet. 

What IS important at the 7th trumpet is that Satan loses and Jesus gains. Finally, after 6000 years, Satan is no longer the spiritual ruler of the planet. 

Do you see this, "to anoint the most Holy" from Daniel 9, as happening at the start of the Millennial Kingdom?