Church of Christ? What do you think?

[Blood Bought 1953]

3 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

One of my favorite stories in the bible is where Paul is bitten by the snake and just throws it off. I can imagine, based on his teaching, that his attitude was, "If God wants it to kill me, I'll die, and that's fine if it's God's will. And if he doesn't want it to, I won't die. Meanwhile, I need to get this wood for the fire."

The bible is so revealing and downright fun when you actually put yourself there with them, soak up the culture of the time and see the incredible promises of God from the perspective of those giving us first hand accounts.

 

Being a bit of a natural born wise-a**, I always get tickled when I read about God’s retort to Moses when he whined about being “ slow of tongue” when God told him to speak to Pharoah—- “Who made mouths?” God asked. Don Rickles would have trouble topping that one!

 

[Still Alive]

20 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Being a bit of a natural born wise-a**, I always get tickled when I read about God’s retort to Moses when he whined about being “ slow of tongue” when God told him to speak to Pharoah—- “Who made mouths?” God asked. Don Rickles would have trouble topping that one!

 

Or 1 Kings 18:27 where Elija makes fun of the prophets of Baal: Maybe he's in the John...

[Blood Bought 1953]

Just now, Still Alive said:

Or 1 Kings 18:27 where Elija makes fun of the prophets of Baal: Maybe he's in the John...

 

YES!    Haha......hadn’t thought about that one for awhile......I am just carnal enough to wonder what actual Hebrew words were used before it got cleaned up.

[DWH2003]

23 hours ago, Still Alive said:

OK, NOW i read your whole post. I don't know how to break up posts into separate quotes so I'll hit them here...

First, your car repair analogy does not work. If I told the mechanic to simply make my car work correctly, yes, fixing everything that is broken would be acceptable. If I said to fix the brakes, anything else would not be. The bible relates to the former. 

Second, The book of revelation refers to adding or subtracting from that one book, not the compilation of books and letters we call the Bible. 

Third, your reference to Acts 15:24 is, in my opinion, ironic. I do not play an instrument because I was commanded to, though you seem to think I shouldn't play because I was not specifically commanded to. 

Fourth, Paul was discussing the current culture when he discussed the long hair. Frankly, that very popular picture of Jesus hanging in virtually every Christian church annoys me for a variety of reasons, but it's kinda funny that he has long hair in that picture, considering Paul's words.

I can find not one scripture that even suggests there would be something wrong with playing instruments in church and, conversely, can find scripture supporting it. 

For me, arguing that it is wrong is like arguing that it is wrong to have a bible with a blue cover.

LOL  Sorry about breaking the posts up.

 

Your response is very interesting.  My point on car repairs was an example of the need for authority - that whatever the mechanic does must be authorized by the car's owner.  You objected to the need for authority by... affirming the need for authority.  In this, you contradicted yourself.

You wrote:  "If I told the mechanic to simply make my car work correctly, yes, fixing everything that is broken would be acceptable. If I said to fix the brakes, anything else would not be. The bible relates to the former."

I agree that the mechanic may be authorized generically ("fix everything").  I also agree that the mechanic may be authorized specifically ("fix the brakes").  In both cases he needs authorization for work done. And in both cases, it is possible for him to go beyond what is authorized.  "Fix everything" grants permission to repair whatever is broken.  It does not authorize adding new features or removing existing features.  "Fix the brakes" grants permission to repair that specific thing.  It does not grant permission to work on other things.

Both examples affirm the need for authority.  Yet you arbitrarily say that the Bible is only the former, generic authority.  Actually it uses both generic & specific authority, and neither one supports your conclusion of doing things that are unauthorized (instruments).  The Bible at times is generic.  For example, "go" in Mark 16:15.  They could go by walking, go by boat, go by riding... as long as they "go".  At times God's word is specific.  For example, "Preach the gospel" in Mark 16:15.  If Paul preached tent repair basics in the name of Christ... that would not be doing what Jesus said.   

--

You add:  "Second, The book of revelation refers to adding or subtracting from that one book, not the compilation of books and letters we call the Bible."

Yes, it is specifically addressing that book.  But you see that same principle repeated all through the pages of scripture.  What does it tell you that God is constantly saying this same principle, not just about the book of Revelation, but about everything He says?

---

You add:  "Third, your reference to Acts 15:24 is, in my opinion, ironic. I do not play an instrument because I was commanded to, though you seem to think I shouldn't play because I was not specifically commanded to. "

Please note that you have just admitted that you have no authority, yet do it anyway.

---

You add:  "Fourth, Paul was discussing the current culture when he discussed the long hair."

Paul praised the Corinthians for holding the traditions he (as an apostle of Jesus Christ) delivered to them (1 Cor. 11:2).  Paul affirmed that man "ought not to have his head veiled, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God" (11:7). Paul affirmed this distinction based on God's order of creation (11:9).  Paul then backs this up with a general assessment of culture (11:13) and nature (11:14) which both agree with what Paul affirmed from God.  Most cultures view long hair is as feminine.  Also, in nature, men have a stronger tendency to baldness than women.

And notice the overtly stated conclusion of the Holy Spirit inspired writer:  "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

 

He concludes by saying it is shameful for a man to have long hair and glorious for women to have long hair.  That is God's revealed view, confirmed by culture & nature.  Also, note: "her hair is given her for a covering".  Who gave this distinction between men & women?  Who gave long hair to women? God.

This is a perfect example of where our thoughts are not God's thoughts. We must be willing to give up our thoughts and think in ways He reveals.  I used to have long hair. But after learning what God says, I want to please Him.  I do not want to face Him one day living in ways He says are shameful.  It is not that I am trusting in my perfect works, it is far far too late for that. It is that I am trusting in Him to the point where my own preferences and opinions will be cast away and replaced by what He says.  That is walking by faith, not by sight.

---

You add:  "I can find not one scripture that even suggests there would be something wrong with playing instruments in church and, conversely, can find scripture supporting it. "

There are clear, overt principles that say silence is prohibition, not permission.  The NT is silent on musical instruments being used in worship.  There is no authority in the NT, whether specific or generic, for using instruments in worship.

You say you can find scripture supporting it, but have not yet offered one NT passage that authorizes its use today.  If you can find positive authority in the NT (whether generic or specific) then I will gladly concede to God's word.

---

You conclude:  "For me, arguing that it is wrong is like arguing that it is wrong to have a bible with a blue cover."

God says to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor. 5:7).  Faith comes from God's word (Rom. 10:17).  If God's word is silent, there can be faith to walk by.  Instead it would be presumption.

[Still Alive]

22 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

LOL  Sorry about breaking the posts up.

 

Your response is very interesting.  My point on car repairs was an example of the need for authority - that whatever the mechanic does must be authorized by the car's owner.  You objected to the need for authority by... affirming the need for authority.  In this, you contradicted yourself.

You wrote:  "If I told the mechanic to simply make my car work correctly, yes, fixing everything that is broken would be acceptable. If I said to fix the brakes, anything else would not be. The bible relates to the former."

I agree that the mechanic may be authorized generically ("fix everything").  I also agree that the mechanic may be authorized specifically ("fix the brakes").  In both cases he needs authorization for work done. And in both cases, it is possible for him to go beyond what is authorized.  "Fix everything" grants permission to repair whatever is broken.  It does not authorize adding new features or removing existing features.  "Fix the brakes" grants permission to repair that specific thing.  It does not grant permission to work on other things.

Both examples affirm the need for authority.  Yet you arbitrarily say that the Bible is only the former, generic authority.  Actually it uses both generic & specific authority, and neither one supports your conclusion of doing things that are unauthorized (instruments).  The Bible at times is generic.  For example, "go" in Mark 16:15.  They could go by walking, go by boat, go by riding... as long as they "go".  At times God's word is specific.  For example, "Preach the gospel" in Mark 16:15.  If Paul preached tent repair basics in the name of Christ... that would not be doing what Jesus said.   

--

You add:  "Second, The book of revelation refers to adding or subtracting from that one book, not the compilation of books and letters we call the Bible."

Yes, it is specifically addressing that book.  But you see that same principle repeated all through the pages of scripture.  What does it tell you that God is constantly saying this same principle, not just about the book of Revelation, but about everything He says?

---

You add:  "Third, your reference to Acts 15:24 is, in my opinion, ironic. I do not play an instrument because I was commanded to, though you seem to think I shouldn't play because I was not specifically commanded to. "

Please note that you have just admitted that you have no authority, yet do it anyway.

---

You add:  "Fourth, Paul was discussing the current culture when he discussed the long hair."

Paul praised the Corinthians for holding the traditions he (as an apostle of Jesus Christ) delivered to them (1 Cor. 11:2).  Paul affirmed that man "ought not to have his head veiled, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God" (11:7). Paul affirmed this distinction based on God's order of creation (11:9).  Paul then backs this up with a general assessment of culture (11:13) and nature (11:14) which both agree with what Paul affirmed from God.  Most cultures view long hair is as feminine.  Also, in nature, men have a stronger tendency to baldness than women.

And notice the overtly stated conclusion of the Holy Spirit inspired writer:  "14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

 

He concludes by saying it is shameful for a man to have long hair and glorious for women to have long hair.  That is God's revealed view, confirmed by culture & nature.  Also, note: "her hair is given her for a covering".  Who gave this distinction between men & women?  Who gave long hair to women? God.

This is a perfect example of where our thoughts are not God's thoughts. We must be willing to give up our thoughts and think in ways He reveals.  I used to have long hair. But after learning what God says, I want to please Him.  I do not want to face Him one day living in ways He says are shameful.  It is not that I am trusting in my perfect works, it is far far too late for that. It is that I am trusting in Him to the point where my own preferences and opinions will be cast away and replaced by what He says.  That is walking by faith, not by sight.

---

You add:  "I can find not one scripture that even suggests there would be something wrong with playing instruments in church and, conversely, can find scripture supporting it. "

There are clear, overt principles that say silence is prohibition, not permission.  The NT is silent on musical instruments being used in worship.  There is no authority in the NT, whether specific or generic, for using instruments in worship.

You say you can find scripture supporting it, but have not yet offered one NT passage that authorizes its use today.  If you can find positive authority in the NT (whether generic or specific) then I will gladly concede to God's word.

---

You conclude:  "For me, arguing that it is wrong is like arguing that it is wrong to have a bible with a blue cover."

God says to "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor. 5:7).  Faith comes from God's word (Rom. 10:17).  If God's word is silent, there can be faith to walk by.  Instead it would be presumption.

I mow my lawn, yet I have no specific authority/commandment to do so. I also use bug spray and wasp spray. I could go on and on with that one both within what happens within my church organization and my Christian walk outside of church. I believe all things are permissible but not all things are profitable, as Paul said. I can do whatever I want and am given permission to do so with a completely clean conscience unless it violates the spirit of God's word. Playing an instrument in church does not. It is a practice carried forward from the OT. No, not a commandment of the old covanent, but a practice. 

God created in us an appreciation of music in all its forms. Even smooth blues guitar through a sweetly distorted tube amp.

[DWH2003]

15 hours ago, Jayne said:

The psalms are not the Law.  They are, for the most part, praise songs to God.    The Old Testament, as a whole, does not equal the Law.  The Law is found in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.

By your assertion, are all the psalms and their teachings invalid?

 

The Psalms are of the Old Law. 
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'"?  (See Psalm 82:6)

John 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'(See 
Ps. 35:19; 69:4)

 

 

Hebrews 10:1 says the Old Law is a shadow of the things in Christ, not the substance.

 

They include animal sacrifices.  Which is better, animal sacrifices (the shadow), or the sacrifice of Christ (the substance)?

The teachings are no longer in authority today (Heb. 7:18; 8:13; etc.).  Christ's death completed the Old Law, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14-17).  His death also established a new covenant (Luke 22:20).

 

While no longer in authority, we can still learn from them, by the examples given (1 Cor. 10:6, 11).

[DWH2003]

28 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I mow my lawn, yet I have no specific authority/commandment to do so. I also use bug spray and wasp spray. I could go on and on with that one both within what happens within my church organization and my Christian walk outside of church. I believe all things are permissible but not all things are profitable, as Paul said. I can do whatever I want and am given permission to do so with a completely clean conscience unless it violates the spirit of God's word. Playing an instrument in church does not. It is a practice carried forward from the OT. No, not a commandment of the old covanent, but a practice. 

God created in us an appreciation of music in all its forms. Even smooth blues guitar through a sweetly distorted tube amp.

Some things are generically authorized, others are specifically authorized.

There are principles God has established in creation, and reaffirmed in both the Old Law and the New law - regarding man's role & place in nature.  Man is to subdue & have dominion over the earth (Gen. 1:28).  This is illustrated time and again by God's OT & NT examples of managing the earth, using things, using animals for labor, etc.  Lawn care & pest spray would fall under the general authority of dominion over the earth.

As for the church, God makes a distinction between individual activity & church activity.  Again, in many places, but one obvious one is in 1 Cor. 11:34.  The Lord's Supper is a memorial of Christ, a time of self-examination - not a common meal.  The Spirit said if any man is hungry, let him eat at home, that your coming together be not unto judgment (v. 34).  Eating to satisfy hunger is generally authorized.  But eating for this purpose it is not authorized in worship, because God said so.

As for 1 Cor. 10:23 saying all things are lawful, there is a context.  This statement cannot be understood in a way that contradicts other scriptures.  Truth does not contradict.  Is idolatry authorized?  No, Paul just said it was unlawful & we must flee it (1 Cor. 10:14-22).  Thus, "all things are lawful" does not include unlawful things.  Paul, after pointing out that unlawful things are unlawful, is now saying that even among lawful things, not everything is always good to do.

His example is of eating meats sacrificed to idols.  One can eat it, knowing that an idol is nothing and properly giving thanks to God for the food.  Yet, another may be encouraged to eat of this same food... in a way that violates their conscience.  They still see it as worship to idols... and while technically lawful to eat (an idol is nothing), violating & abusing our conscience is also a sin...

When you argue for practicing things not authorized by God today, you are not speaking as Paul spoke.

Edited September 5, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

7 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

When you argue for practicing things not authorized by God today, you are not speaking as Paul spoke.

Are you Amish?

Edit: I just realized you are using a computer, so it's highly unlikely. But it is not authorized by God, so, just as the Amish have people drive them to Dr appointments where I live, you would be having someone else type this in for you, not being specifically authorized by God and all.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Still Alive

[DWH2003]

I noted you edited a previous post as I responded. Sorry, I do the same thing, post then edit things.

You edited: "...I can do whatever I want and am given permission to do so with a completely clean conscience unless it violates the spirit of God's word. Playing an instrument in church does not. It is a practice carried forward from the OT. No, not a commandment of the old covanent, but a practice. 

God created in us an appreciation of music in all its forms. Even smooth blues guitar through a sweetly distorted tube amp."

 

 

Man has never been given a blank check by God.  Even Adam & Eve were given at least one limitation to their conduct.

"Spirit" vs letter. Already responded to above.  Your use (to justify things not revealed) is not the way God uses it.

No NT passage authorizes musical instruments in worship today.  You are welcome to search and prove me wrong.

Carrying forward OT practices is specifically described as sinful, and severs one from Christ (Gal. 5:4).

An appreciation of something is not authorization for something. This glorifies desire over God's word.  I like pizza. I really appreciate it.  Does this authorize its use in worship?

 

8 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Are you Amish?

Edit: I just realized you are using a computer, so it's highly unlikely. But it is not authorized by God, so, just as the Amish have people drive them to Dr appointments where I live, you would be having someone else type this in for you, not being specifically authorized by God and all. 

LOL no, sir.

The point I made early about general authority & dominion over the earth applies here.

The Amish misunderstand the difference between specific & general authority.

Your response, though humorous, is not accurate.  : P

Edited September 5, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

7 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

I noted you edited a previous post as I responded. Sorry, I do the same thing, post then edit things.

You edited: "...I can do whatever I want and am given permission to do so with a completely clean conscience unless it violates the spirit of God's word. Playing an instrument in church does not. It is a practice carried forward from the OT. No, not a commandment of the old covanent, but a practice. 

God created in us an appreciation of music in all its forms. Even smooth blues guitar through a sweetly distorted tube amp."

 

 

Man has never been given a blank check by God.  Even Adam & Eve were given at least one limitation to their conduct.

I completely agree. I don't see this as a blank check. Rather, I see it as the equivalent of God saying, "Yes, you can travel." And when Henry Ford started producing Model T's, I have the complete permission by God to buy one, that I may travel farther and faster, and, eventually, win at Indianapolis!

Christians are free, indeed. It is permissible unless God says it isn't. And sometimes it is specific "thou shalt nots" and sometimes it is implied. But I don't need Specific permission in my day to day activities and how I worship him. It's why I see it as worship as I ride my mower and watch my chickens hunt down and gobble down the grasshoppers it disturbs. It's very entertaining and I thank God for creating me and the environment he created this body for, as well as my ability to appreciate it, as well as good worship music accompanied by skilled musicians. 

Though a-capella can be nice as well, if done right.