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R. Hartono

What exactly will be seen during the Rapture

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On 10/30/2018 at 2:16 AM, ARGOSY said:

 

Thanks Enoob57 for expressing your opinion.

But if you can't explain your studied opinion, it does not make for good discussion on a discussion website.  Neither will you give strength to your view.  Generally the biblical basis for the pre-trib view is to take a few verses out of context. And use this to separate obviously overlapping events into two sets of similar events.  Thus the trumpet/coming of Christ/resurrection/gathering of saints is seen as two sets of matching events,because of a narrow view of Luke 21:36 and Rev 3:10 and an incorrect view of the man-child of Rev 12 and the restrainer of 2 Thess 2

Thus you abandon the obvious (four identical events) in favor of verses subject to interpretation.

I have thought that was how post trib and prewrath came up with their views! I don't know how one can take 1 Thes 4 & 5 out of context. The context is the rapture.  We ALL know classic pretrib does not follow good exegesis on Rev. 4:1, but that is not the real place of the rapture anyway. 

I see posttrib trying to make the gathering in Matthew 24 the same as Paul's rapture, but it cannot be. 

A question could be asked: DOES the church restrain evil? Of course it does!

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:37 AM, ARGOSY said:

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. I see the wedding feast occurring earlier on the day of the Lord. we are not appointed to wrath, this is why we are raptured earlier on that day. What verses do you have that favor years between the two events, rather than just hours? I suspect only the assumption of the pre-trib rapture would support your view.

Are you making stuff up, or following the text? I see the Day of the Lord starting at the 6th seal - before the entire 70th week.  That is right where John starts the DAY. John tells us that is also the start of God's wrath. Where are you seeing the start of the day?  If at any other time, I don't see how you can be following the text. On the other hand, the marriage and supper are in chapter 19, FAR later in the book, and FAR later in time. The entire 70th week is BETWEEN the two events.

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On 10/29/2018 at 9:06 PM, Adstar said:

His Fathers house is described in the Book of Revelation.. It is the New Jerusalem..  Where we shall live with Jesus forever.. That is the place with many mansions.. Now what does the book of Revelation say about what will happen to the New Jerusalem at the end times??  Lets see..

Revelation 21: KJV

2"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. {4} And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

So the New Jerusalem comes out of heaven so we shall not be living in heaven for eternity.. It's coming down from God to us who will be on the New Earth..

If you wish to wait until then, perhaps our Father can be persuaded to have you wait. But the CHURCH will be raptured before the week and will be escorted into heaven and to our mansions over 1007 years before you will see your mansion. 

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On 10/29/2018 at 12:43 PM, ARGOSY said:

I am not saying your view is impossible or untruthful. In the Olivet discourse  and Rev 19 the second coming is so clearly described in such visible and dramatic fashion.  So when the rapture is described in 1 Thess 4/5 and 1 corinthians 15 as also occurring when Jesus comes again, it is strange that the concept of an additional coming is introduced without clarification that it is an additional coming. 

Note that in Matthew 24 it was believers, the disciples, who Jesus told to look for the signs of the second coming.  Knowing this, which coming do you think the believers had in mind when reading this:

1 Thess 4 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Sure it is possible that another second coming was introduced into the bible in the epistles. This would then make Jesus' answer to the disciples' question in Matthew 24  actually an answer about a third coming less relevant to believers experiencing a pre-trib rapture. Why then all the urging to watch for signs in Matthew 24 when those signs are largely irrelevant to his pre-trib audience? Nothing really gels smoothly.

It is not strange at all: in His next coming, the 2nd coming, FOR His saints, He does not touch down, but remains in a cloud, and they returns back to heaven. In His 3rd coming, WITH His saints, He will touch down and fight the battle of Armageddon.  Just reading the different texts TELLS us these are two different comings.

It is just as clear that there will be two times the signs in the sun and moon are seen: first with a blood moon as the sign of the Day of the Lord, and then a darkened sun and moon, invisible with total darkness as the sign of His coming.  

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On 10/29/2018 at 6:24 AM, ARGOSY said:

Yes context is everything. But in every case a rapture is mentioned context favors a post trib scenario. Being well matched to second coming events like.... When he comes again 🤔. The last trumpet. The resurrection. The day of wrath. 

I disagree. When I read 1 Thes. 4, I don't get an idea of a posttrib scenario.

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. When I read 1 Thes. 4, I don't get an idea of a posttrib scenario.

Hmm? I suggest you read this:

 

According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one anotherwith these words.  Now brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

Rapture= thief in the night, day of destruction, second coming

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is not strange at all: in His next coming, the 2nd coming, FOR His saints, He does not touch down, but remains in a cloud, and they returns back to heaven. In His 3rd coming, WITH His saints, He will touch down and fight the battle of Armageddon.  Just reading the different texts TELLS us these are two different comings.

It is just as clear that there will be two times the signs in the sun and moon are seen: first with a blood moon as the sign of the Day of the Lord, and then a darkened sun and moon, invisible with total darkness as the sign of His coming.  

That's what you have been taught, sure, but in Matthew 24  Jesus does not hint at the earlier rapture for the church when the disciples ask him about his next coming.

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Are you making stuff up, or following the text? I see the Day of the Lord starting at the 6th seal - before the entire 70th week.  That is right where John starts the DAY. John tells us that is also the start of God's wrath. Where are you seeing the start of the day?  If at any other time, I don't see how you can be following the text. On the other hand, the marriage and supper are in chapter 19, FAR later in the book, and FAR later in time. The entire 70th week is BETWEEN the two events.

The 6th seal is the second coming. Even a baby Christian can see that. I often use peoples interpretation of the 6th seal to determine if they have any common sense at all regarding understanding the Bible. This is the second coming:

 I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are truly welcome to your view, but any Christian can see the second coming in those words.

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have thought that was how post trib and prewrath came up with their views! I don't know how one can take 1 Thes 4 & 5 out of context. The context is the rapture.  We ALL know classic pretrib does not follow good exegesis on Rev. 4:1, but that is not the real place of the rapture anyway. 

I see posttrib trying to make the gathering in Matthew 24 the same as Paul's rapture, but it cannot be. 

A question could be asked: DOES the church restrain evil? Of course it does!

Kindly read 2 Thess 2 carefully. The lawlessness is already on earth, but secretly. Other verses in the Bible indicate the spirit of antichrist is already in the world. What is being held back? The revealing, not the lawlessness. It is an evil entity that tries to hide evil. Good exposes evil.

Satan is the restrainer who tries to keep the evil hidden. Satan is removed 1260 days before the end as per Rev 12. This is when the antichrist is revealed 42 months before the end (read Rev 13)

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1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

Hmm? I suggest you read this:

 

According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one anotherwith these words.  Now brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

Rapture= thief in the night, day of destruction, second coming

Right! And it is a COMFORT. The comfort is, we escape what is coming.  

Thief in the night? Check!

Day of destruction to follow? Check! It will be Paul's sudden destruction for all those left behind.

Second coming? Check! He came once already. His next coming therefore will be His second coming. His coming as shown in Matthew 24 and Rev. 19 will be His third coming. 

 

Where does this second coming fit in the book of Revelation? Of course, just before His wrath that begins at the 6th seal.

Edited by iamlamad

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