Woman of Revelation 12

[dhchristian]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why would I EVER believe you when you disagree with the Head of the Church?

Stop putting words in people's mouths. I Never said this!! And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

Do You see the conditional phrase above?

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Note, the 7 churches in Revelation were JEWISH churches.

WRONG AGAIN! They were located in Asia Minor. The Church consisted of Jews and Gentiles.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:28)

Quite frankly, Your Logic is severely flawed, You are a Bully who thinks he knows it all, and you are not as smart as you think you are. When Someone confronts you, you spin your previous answer to say something else. You have been caught doing this with regard to the Woman in Revelation 12 three times now. Now You spin it again to say it means all three things when you get caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar. Anything but saying "I am wrong", as those are the hardest words to come out of your mouth, and show an unrepentant heart. This is nothing more than Post modernism gone mad, and if you were smart you would examine yourself and find out where your thinking is flawed. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

ed 3 hours ago

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would I EVER believe you when you disagree with the Head of the Church?

Stop putting words in people's mouths. I Never said this!! And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

Do You see the conditional phrase above?

WRONG AGAIN! They were located in Asia Minor. The Church consisted of Jews and Gentiles.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:28)

Quite frankly, Your Logic is severely flawed, You are a Bully who thinks he knows it all, and you are not as smart as you think you are. When Someone confronts you, you spin your previous answer to say something else. You have been caught doing this with regard to the Woman in Revelation 12 three times now. Now You spin it again to say it means all three things when you get caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar. Anything but saying "I am wrong", as those are the hardest words to come out of your mouth, and show an unrepentant heart. This is nothing more than Post modernism gone mad, and if you were smart you would examine yourself and find out where your thinking is flawed.

You imagine that the woman in Rev. 12 is the apostate church.  You wrote,  " Therefore the Woman is the Apostate church. "

Jesus told me the first five verses were about how the dragon tried to kill Him as a young child. According to the Head of the church, those first five verses are about how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child. That would make the person being very pregnant and crying out in birth Mary.  That would make the child our Messiah and the Lord Jesus Christ.  It has nothing to do with any church, apostate or not.  And that is why I said I would take HIS word over yours. It is simple: your theory disagrees with what Jesus told me.  Comparing what He said with your theory? There is no comparison.  I did not put words in your mouth that I know of.

Don't feel bad: MANY people fail to see that these verses are about Jesus. Why? Some recognize chapter 12 as a midpoint chapter and don't recognize a parenthesis - so imaging these verses must have something to do with the midpoint of the week.

Agreed, when a Jew or a Gentile is born again, IN THE SPIRIT they are no longer Jew or Gentile but a part of His body on earth. 

You say I spin. I don't think so: I still end up with the first five verses being about the birth of Christ, the Messiah, born of the Virgin Mary who is from the nation of Israel.  What you call "spin" is simply I did not include every aspect.

Let's not get stuck in trees - lets see the forest. I say those five verses are about the birth of the Messiah and how the Dragon tried to kill him.

Now, I have summed up 5 verses in 13 words.

Can you sum up your answer as to these 5 verses in just a few words?

That way there can be no mistake: we will all see if you agree or disagree with my summary.

Again I disagree: there is nothing wrong with my logic.

Verse 1: "woman" is Virgo in the Sky. I say she is to represent both Israel (sun, moon, 12 stars) and a virgin (She is called Virgo.)

Verse 4 "woman" "the Dragon stood in front of the "woman:"  Here  Woman is the virgin Mary - but IN CONTEXT Mary from Israel.

Verse 6: "woman"  The woman fled into the wilderness...:  Here "Woman" is a subset of "Israel." Jesus said those in Judea must flee. This verse 6 is when those in Judea BEGIN their fleeing.

Verse 13:  "Woman" "he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child." This identifies woman as the same one who gave birth: but this is 2000 years later: it cannot refer to Mary.  It must then refer to Israel from verse 1.

Verse 14: "woman"  "The woman" so same woman as verse 13

Verse 15:  "woman"  "water like a river, to overtake the woman..." Again same woman as 13 & 14: the subset of Israel as those living in Judea who will flee when they see the abomination.

Verse 16: "woman"  "The earth helped the woman..."  The same subset of Israel as those who lived in Judea but fled.

Verse 17: "woman"  "the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

Is there any way we can conceive that believers in Jesus are the "offspring" of the "woman?" Of course, because the Messiah came from Israel, and the Messiah started the church.  Note carefully "rest" or as KJV stated, the remnant: showing that the rapture of the church or the rest of the woman's offspring had been taken from earth previously.

As you can see, I have gone through every mention of "woman" in this chapter.  You could learn from this, or you could reject it. I have little doubt which you will do.

You are a Bully who thinks he knows it all  Sorry, but teaching truth and defeating false doctrine is the job of a TEACHER, not a bully.

Someone confronts you, you spin your previous answer to say something else  You can say that, but it is really not truth.  I have never varied from the first five verses being about the birth of Christ and how Satan tried to murder Him as a small child. I won't change that believe because it is exactly what Jesus told me. Your only problem is, you don't believe it. You have your own theory and are not about to change it. I know, you think my thinking is flawed because I won't agree with your take on these things. So be it. We are back to the person getting peeved at the banker because he or she won't take a counterfeit bill. Our difference here is very simple: Jesus taught me HIS meaning of these 5 verses, but you don't believe it was Jesus that spoke to me. Why? Of course - because your meaning is different.

[dhchristian]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note, the 7 churches in Revelation were JEWISH churches.

Did Your Jesus tell you this lie too? I Noticed you avoided this topic.

 

57 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but teaching truth and defeating false doctrine is the job of a TEACHER, not a bully.

You are no teacher. Your still thinking in carnal terms and talking of defeating by your own strength. This is the sign of Religious pride

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but teaching truth and defeating false doctrine is the job of a TEACHER, not a bully.

CHAPTER 22: SELF-DECEPTION AND HOW TO AVOID IT
Of all forms of deception, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.

The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other’s guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long.

With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived.

It is altogether possible to practice fraud upon our own souls and go deceived to judgment. “If a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing,” said Paul, “he deceiveth himself.” With this agrees the inspired James: “If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.”
The farther we push into the sanctuary the greater becomes the danger of selfdeception. The deeply religious man is far more vulnerable than the easygoing fellow who takes his religion lightly. This latter may be deceived but he is not likely to be self-deceived.

Under the pressure of deep spiritual concern, and before his heart has been wholly conquered by the Spirit of God, a man may be driven to try every dodge to save face and preserve a semblance of his old independence. This is always dangerous and if persisted in may prove calamitous.

The fallen heart is by nature idolatrous. There appears to be no limit to which some of us will go to save our idol, while at the same time telling ourselves eagerly that we are trusting in Christ alone. It takes a violent act of renunciation to deliver us from the hidden idol, and since very few modern Christians understand that such an act is necessary, and only a small number of those who know are willing to do, it follows that relatively few professors of the Christian faith these days have ever experienced the painful act of renunciation that frees the heart from idolatry

[R. Hartono]

On 7/2/2019 at 5:38 AM, dhchristian said:

and THEREFORE the Woman has to be the apostate church.
 

David,

Why would God save that woman from the face of the serpent if she is the apostate church ?

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, R. Hartono said:

David,

Why would God save that woman from the face of the serpent if she is the apostate church ?

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If You use Israel as the example during the time of Jesus, She is still producing offspring. It is in the wilderness that the offspring are produced. Israel did not face the full punishment for rejecting Jesus and crucifying him until some 35 years after because she was producing remnant that converted.

Think also of Israel in exile. 40 years in the Wilderness, and only Caleb and Joshua saw their way into the promised land, The Wilderness is a place of Discipline, and learning to trust God. It is not a pleasant place to go, even with the divine hand of protection.

Notice also that the dragon did not go after the woman initially, but her seed, But once he was cast down to earth he went after the woman. Almost like he did not think he needed to go after the woman. Like he believed that she was under his control already. Think also back to the fall in the Garden and the enmity between the woman and her seed, and Satan and his seed.

During the time of Jesus, Israel was an apostate woman, not a bride. The Holy remnant became the church. During this time, the church is not a bride, but the Holy remnant (the overcomers) will become the holy Priesthood in the New Millennium dispensation. (1 Pet. 2:4-9)

 

[dhchristian]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Jesus came in the fourth Day or around 4,000 years after Adam. 

You could also say that the first 2000 years were the time of the Father, The second 2000 years the time of the Son, and the last 2000 years the time of the Holy Ghost. 

The Fathers were through Abraham, the Sons from Jacob to Christ, the Holy Ghost from Pentecost to today and the revelation of the "sons of God."

[R. Hartono]

29 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

If You use Israel as the example during the time of Jesus, She is still producing offspring.

 

 

You said the woman is the apostate church and the manchild is the overcomer coming out of that apostate church.

Now you say she is still producing offspring. How could the apostate church produces offspring ?

 

[dhchristian]

8 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The seven Churches of Asia of two thousand years ago are a reference only of the Churches in our days, to show to us as the Churches would be spiritually in this apocalyptic time.

Although a possibility, I do not think this is true. I think each church age Mutated into the next. For example Philadelphia was not rebuked for anything, and as complacency set in and self deception, she became rich and thought she was in need of nothing. This is where the denial in the Laodicean church began, The Lukewarmness. This is what happened to the fundamentalist churches. What were once vibrant churches standing up against the incursions of modernity, became ruled by the scribes of those churches and divine revelation was locked out. Thus Jesus was locked out of the churches, and why he is knocking and waiting for us to let Him in, in this Laodicean Age.

[R. Hartono]

38 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

If You use Israel as the example during the time of Jesus, She is still producing offspring. It is in the wilderness that the offspring are produced. Israel did not face the full punishment for rejecting Jesus and crucifying him until some 35 years after because she was producing remnant that converted.

Think also of Israel in exile. 40 years in the Wilderness, and only Caleb and Joshua saw their way into the promised land, The Wilderness is a place of Discipline, and learning to trust God. It is not a pleasant place to go, even with the divine hand of protection.

Notice also that the dragon did not go after the woman initially, but her seed, But once he was cast down to earth he went after the woman. Almost like he did not think he needed to go after the woman. Like he believed that she was under his control already. Think also back to the fall in the Garden and the enmity between the woman and her seed, and Satan and his seed.

During the time of Jesus, Israel was an apostate woman, not a bride. The Holy remnant became the church. During this time, the church is not a bride, but the Holy remnant (the overcomers) will become the holy Priesthood in the New Millennium dispensation. (1 Pet. 2:4-9)

 

There is no way God will save that woman from the face of the serpent if she is the apostate church. the foolish virgins shall be left.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.