An Identity Crisis in the Evangelical Church by Greg Gordon

[Heleadethme]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:47 PM, sermonindex said:

For many Christians in our day, the concept of Christianity begins with the reformation period of the 1500’s, often with little desired to be known about the church before that time. And so, like a vessel adrift in the sea of modern individualism, we have in many ways strayed from the original course marked out for us by the Apostles of the Lamb.

An Identity Crisis

This identity crisis has been manifesting itself in very strong and even unnecessary divisions forming in the body of Christ. And, though true disciples of the Lord must of necessity refuse what is heretical, many of these divisions are due to ignorance and misunderstanding, and have been brought about by the deceptive wiles of the Enemy of our souls. 

Another symptom of this identity crisis is the continual inventing of new doctrines and ideas. If there is no original belief or foundational understanding, then truth is essentially up to everyone’s own private interpretation of Scripture. In our day, there seem to be almost as many interpretations of Scripture as there are people reading those same Scriptures—along with an endless questioning and re-questioning of everything. With currently over 42,000 Christian denominations, the rugged individualism of Western thought has allowed an unprecedented explosion of everyone doing what is right in their own eyes.

Yet, in the midst of the wilderness of this modern quandary there is a renewed hunger and thirst for Christianity in its purest form. Many are asking questions such as, “What did the original, early disciples of the Lord Jesus believe?”and, “How did they worship?

Meet St. Clement

Many of us would love have been given the chance to sit down with the Apostle Peter, or have a meal with Paul the Apostle. St. Clement may have done both!
Born in AD 35 and ending his earthly journey in AD 99, Clement was contemporary with the twelve Apostles.

Paul the Apostle mentions Clement in his Epistle as a co-worker:
“I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Early Church Fathers Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, and Jerome, amongst others, hold to the view that this is a referral to St. Clement in the Scriptures. What an exciting thing to know that this name “Clement” now carries much more significance in our Bibles, he having been a co-worker with the Apostle Paul. Not only this, but he also went on to become to the bishop of Rome. 

Connecting The Dots

For much of Church history the writings of the early Christians were available and the traditions of the Apostles and proper interpretation of the Scriptures were passed on. Since the reformation times unfortunately there was a divorcing of the historic interpretation of many practices of the Church and the interpretation of each reformer was more important. Of course there were lost doctrines that needed to be re-emphasized such as justification by faith. But many historic doctrines and beliefs were minimized at the same time. 

Not only a minimizing of doctrines was occurring but also a great confusion ensuing where each reformer had his own viewpoint. Some stayed very close to the early historic church such as Thomas crammer in the starting of the Anglican Church. But most reformers decided the Church councils and decisions made in the past did not matter and they would re-find all truth themselves with the Scriptures in hand. This sounds good at first glance but when each person saying that comes up with a different interpretation of what the Scripture verse means then we have more confusion than clarity. 

A way for us to minimize this confusion and muddying of the waters is to connect the dots from the first century Apostles in the Scriptures to the second century bishops and leaders in the Church who were established. St. Clement who we highlighted above was not only contemporary with the Apostles but discipled by them and ordained through their choosing as the bishop in Rome.

A Needed Study

It is of conviction that I believe evangelicals need to make a study of these early Christian leaders and see how the faith was passed on faithfully to the next generation. It is through this desire that I have compiled 3 books being released with samples of the writings of Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Symrna.  All of these men were leaders in the Church, knew the Apostles and were ordained with their blessed in passing on the faith to the next generation. We can read their letters and I believe it will help give some clarity to Scriptures and the faith we hold precious in Jesus Christ. The first in the Early Church Father series on St Clement has been published and it can be read and downloaded freely

Enter the world of first century Christianity, hear the heart of an early Christian leader. You might be surprised and also blessed in what you read. The Lord bless you.

Seems to me that one thing that promotes division is too much talking and not enough doing.  The church is supposed to be an army......when you are fighting side by side with your brothers/sisters in an army, there isn't too much time and energy for dissecting every thought a person might have about every scripture...you are just too busy engaging the enemy and helping  one another and the only thing that matters is Christ and Him crucified.  Go and make disciples is the mandate, which means training up more soldiers to go and fight.....not sit and dissect every jot and tittle of scripture ad nauseum with your fellow soldiers, where every thought is aired with nothing held back.  So the church ends up majoring on minors and being offended at every little difference of opinion instead of labouring together in going and making disciples.  Or maybe it's because of the lack of going and making disciples that talking/writing and endless pontificating and theologizing (not sure if that's a word) comes in to fill the vacuum, whenever the church should be doing a lot more doing and a lot less talking and writing.  Not sure if the chicken or the egg came first, or if it was more of a gradual slide into both.....due to what I mention in the next paragraph....clergy/laity division which causes the church to fall asleep.

Regarding the Nicolaitans, you make some good points.....though I see no reason why it couldn't mean both what you are saying as well as clergy/laity division, because often that is what clergy/laity division brings about.....food offered to idols is a metaphor for false doctrine, especially doctrines of devils.....along with falling into sin and self-indulgence....interesting how those things seem to be the fruit of clergy/laity division all too often.....as well as a weak and powerless, inward oriented Body.  SCRIPTURE itself says that the body of Christ is made of many parts and THERE IS TO BE NO SCHISM IN THE BODY between the various parts, whether greater or lesser.  Things always go askew quickly when we don't adhere to the simplicity of the word of God and the simplicity of the gospel....and live it out in simplicity, and gather in simplicity, rather than in a formal and "ecclesiastical" way.

 

 

[Heleadethme]

On 11/18/2018 at 6:27 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

If you are a Catholic, you need to just come right out and say it.  Because everything you are hinting around at, early "fathers" or the church, like Origen which was one of the people that cursed the world with allegorical interpretation, that the "actual" canon was compiled in the 3rd century, (false) and we need "other" things besides the Bible, (we do not) all sound like Catholic rhetoric. 

I don't know enough about those "early church fathers" per se to judge their ways or their doctrines individually......but I believe we should all be very mindful of what Paul prophesied in general.....that after he departed wolves would come in and devour the flock.  Wolves are those who seek the pre-emminence....they seek ecclesiastical position and power and essentially use the flock as a means to their ends....that is what lies at the root of the concept of clergy-laity division.  It's of the flesh, not the Spirit.  And we have to realize that his prophecy came true.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

On 11/19/2018 at 2:28 PM, sermonindex said:

Perhaps I can state it differently, the Church gave us the canon of Scripture,  the canon of scripture did not give us the Church.    We cannot divorce the historical church (which includes the authority and tradition of the apostles) from the Scriptures themselves.  But that is the evangelical tendency to over-emphasis the Bible to the point of it being even God (some actually teach this in fundamental circles).   

Brother....the church did not give us scripture......God did.  It sounds like you might conceive of "the Church" as being a kind of solidified entity, when actually it is supposed to be a SPIRITUAL Body with Christ as the Head.  Remember what happened to Israel when she craved a flesh and blood king instead of an invisible spiritual one.  A solidified church is a dead church....like rigor mortis.

[Heleadethme]

On 11/19/2018 at 3:05 PM, sermonindex said:

Ok thank you for a clarification on your beliefs and your comment.  

I would say we do not need to reverse the reformation but restore what we lost during it of the stronger connection to the historic church especially the first 400 years of christianity.  Christianity did not start in AD 1500 ?. I trust that makes sense?

After Paul left, wolves came in to devour the flock.....so as someone else mentioned, we need to go further back, all the way back to Jesus and the early church.....in scripture.  Do not stop, do not pass GO but go directly straight back to the horse's mouth (so to speak!).  Paul left us a very strong clue and we should all strongly suspect that what people call the "church fathers" who came in after Paul comprised a mixture of true and false, if he is to simply be believed.  THEY did not write the bible.....so we don't "need" them.  We have scripture and the Holy Spirit...things started to get watered down and confused (ie, complicated) after Paul departed.

[Whistleblower]

21 hours ago, SelahSong said:

Man oh man… 

say what???? 

Accomplish YOUR mission in Christ/Messiah; Get Over Death (GOD) & Praise Get Over Death ALMIGHTY, The MoreNatural Spirit of Love & Help other Get Over Death, he is a who not a what.

The prime root of the word satan is Death.

When Satan tempted Christ/Messiah with giving Him the whole world just by worshipping him, Satan wasnt kidding : ) its his to give, he just left out one word because Satan/Death is a Master Deciever, and that word was Temporal world.

Our roots/heritage has never been in the dirt : ) look for the Light : )

[Faithbuilders]

9 minutes ago, Whistleblower said:

Accomplish YOUR mission in Christ/Messiah; Get Over Death (GOD) & Praise Get Over Death ALMIGHTY, The MoreNatural Spirit of Love & Help other Get Over Death, he is a who not a what.

 

I think for the most part I get what you are trying to say; but do you realize the way that you word things often leaves people scratching there head....

[Whistleblower]

21 hours ago, maryjayne said:

I am not going to pretend to understand what you have posted. What do you mean? what is the 'universal human society for all forms of abused life'? who are the 'children of pure conscious awareness in the spirit?

do you mean you believe there is life before birth on earth for us human?

Believe???? one can know that without The Word, Science can prove that all beliefs have no foundation of facts; The Word understood in the language is was recieved in, leaves no stone unturned concerning this temporal realm; its the Universal thoughts of Our Father Love that we cannot know all of : )

Our Fathers Words of Truth/Fact are acually backed up by Science : )

EG: English; "in the begining GOD created the heavens & the earth."

Moses wrote; " in the begining El'Ohim created time space & mass"

Believe or Study, the choice is ours : ) But Everybodies going to The Lords Day : ) 

[Whistleblower]

17 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Please consider cutting back just a little on whatever it  is you are taking......

Just witnessing Truth/Facts , not solicited beliefs of mankind, dont like? dont read : )

[Whistleblower]

7 minutes ago, Faithbuilders said:

I think for the most part I get what you are trying to say; but do you realize the way that you word things often leaves people scratching there head....

Just witnessing Our Father Love's Words of Fact that The Living Word Affirmed , Confirmed & Fufilled.

Its Reality , Not some solicited belief of mankind; of course its different : )

The doubled edged sword/truth of Our Father is that on one side its straightens out ALL the different religeous beliefs; and the other side dis-proves Every theory, Philosophy and so-called science of mankind, about, where we ALL came, what it is exactly that we are doing here, and pretty much, whats next.