Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, OF COURSE you do! You couldn't be cantankerous without disagreeing! Paul said, "Let GOD be true, and EVERY man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) It's time to drop the little, personal eschatologies that a person may hold (which are simply "opinions" about the Scriptures), and come back to the Scriptures.

What is it with you? Why do you always attack the person instead of the topic?! Who died and made YOU "judge, jury, and executioner?"

First, the "Bride," the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2, 9-10), is already IN a place "above the heaven" (Heb. 12:22); that is "above the sky." That's where it's being prepared (John 14:1-3) and that's from whence it will descend to the New Sky and continue descending out of the New Sky to the New Earth (Rev. 21:2-3, 10-14).

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranioo = "of or belonging to above-the-sky") Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:2-3 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Second, believers, whether identified as "Christians" or not, whether associated with a particular "called-out" assembly or not, are not called "the Bride" anywhere in Scripture! That comes PURELY from theology.

Third, Yeshua` doesn't "take [believers] to heaven - to the homes He has prepared"; the homes He has prepared, being a part of the New Jerusalem, are coming HERE!!! The Scriptures don't say, "He will take us THERE"; the Scriptures say, "The New Jerusalem will come HERE!" And, I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter what you or any other Christian may think or believe; that's what the Scriptures say. So, I'll just say it bluntly: I DON'T believe Yeshua` will take believers to the sky (for that's what "heaven" means) or even to the New Jerusalem, and it's up to HIM whether He counts me "qualified" to enter His City or not!

(And quit pulling Scripture verses out of context and using them in a twisted way! First, know what Ya`aqov ["James"] was talking about in James 1:6-7 before trying to use them in an argument!)

Sorry, but you don't get that from John 14! You said, "We know Jesus will remain in heaven (where He is) during the entire 70th week." This belief-system is an eschatology that someone has derived FROM interpretations of various verses throughout Scriptures and IMPOSED upon their interpretation of John 14! Yeshua` wasn't saying, "Don't worry, I'll be back and pick you up" (where YOU add the words "and pick you up"); He was saying "Don't worry, I'll be busy for a while, but I WILL come back, and we'll be together again, never again to be separated!"

Then you would be guessing wrongly! There you go again! You're attacking the person instead of the topic! STICK TO THE TOPIC!

The scoffers in this passage are giving the same line as Evolutionists use today, that "all things continue as they were from the beginning..." or taking the stance of "uniformitarianism," neglecting the truth in the Scriptures of "catastrophism," in particular, the global Flood. I most emphatically believe in the promise of His coming! I just don't believe in what YOU'RE adding to it, namely, that He will then "turn around and go back and take us to heaven with Him in the process!" That take on these verses IS NOT THERE!

I haven't read anything more into what was written, but you NEGLECT a portion that it DOES say:

5 ...by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were of old, and the earth (Greek: gee = "earth") standing out of the water and in (Greek: dia = "through") the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:..

Right! The only thing I would add is that one must understand that the "heavens" again is the Greek word "ouranoi" which means the "skies," refers to the atmosphere of this planet. Maybe, I should also add that this "day of judgment" when the heavens and the earth are "being reserved for fire," is at the END of the Millennium, not at its beginning. It's the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT!

You should know that I used to believe in a pretribulational rapture. Back then, I was a fundamental, independent Baptist in the BBFI. However, even then I would have strongly disagreed with you about the numbering of His Comings. His First Coming was His First Advent which we have just celebrated with the Christmas holiday. His Second Coming shall His Return, which we would have said would be in stages: The First Stage of His Second Coming will be the Rapture; the Second Stage of His Second Coming will be the Glorious Appearing (like in the Left Behind Series).

HOWEVER, I'm not that guy anymore. Today, I consider myself a rather unique Messianic Jew. Having learned that the Tribulation is NOT a "seven-year period" called Daniel's "70th Week" but is rather the whole period I once called the "Church Age," I now realize that there could NEVER be a "pre-trib rapture" because we're already IN the Tribulation (which began in the First Century A.D. and has been going on ever since)! See, neither 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 nor John 14:1-3 says that Yeshua` or His followers "return back to heaven." Instead, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 says that we learn that "the Lord Himself shall descend from the sky" and "the dead in the Messiah shall rise first" and we who remain alive shall be "snatched away with them in the clouds to meet the Lord Yeshua` in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord." It's actually quite close to what Yeshua` said in John 14:1-3, but again, neither one says that we're "going to heaven" afterward! That's the rub!

You mean "WHERE is the Messiah just before His coming?" ("Christ" is just the Greek translation of "Messiah.") The Messiah will be where He said He would be: "In His Father's house."

First, learn a few things about Avraham ("Abraham"): He was called "the friend of God."

James 2:20-23 (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

He was called a "Hebrew" or "`IVriyt" in Hebrew, which referred to the fact that He was of the lineage of `EeVer ("Heber" or "Eber"). 

1 Chronicles 1:24-27 (KJV)

24 Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, 25 Eber, Peleg, Reu, 26 Serug, Nahor, Terah, 27 Abram; the same is Abraham.

It's also a Hebrew word meaning "wanderer," or "one who goes on, passes by." It's a word used for the nomadic Bedouins who followed their herds, living in tents. That is, tents were their homes! Such was the life for Avraham, Yitschaq (Isaac), and Ya`aqov (Jacob):

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: skeenais the dative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "a tent or cloth hut") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

And, what do we learn about the New Jerusalem?

Revelation 21:2-3 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: foonees megalees ek tou thronou = "a loud voice out of-the throne"; note: the word "heaven" is not there!) saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God (Greek: hee skeenee tou Theou = "the tent of-the God") is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

So, yes, Yeshua` was in God's Tent near His Father's throne; He's there now! But that is FAR earlier than Revelation 19, and Revelation 19 occurs AFTER Revelation 11, by which time Yeshua` has already returned! Let's look back at Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (YHWH) shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (Greek: eenoigee ... en too ouranoo = "opened-upward in the sky"), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, Yeshua` returns at that time! See, the thing you've got to come to grips with is that "heaven" means the "sky," not some "other dimension" or a place out there called "God's abode." THE THREE HEAVENS ARE NOT SPATIAL! THEY ARE CHRONOLOGICAL! It's NOT...

3 (God's "abode")
2 (of stars)
1 (of clouds)

BUT,

1 (FLOOD) 2 (FIRE) 3! ALL THREE "HEAVENS" ARE THE SKIES OF EACH STAGE OF THIS PLANET!

No, the marriage of the Lord is between Himself and His Kingdom, and this will take place IN HIS HOME COUNTRY where His Kingdom will begin. Yeshua` Himself said,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And we learned from Yeshua`s first miracle at Cana that wine is an integral part of a Jewish wedding feast.

One of the FIRST things you need to consider re-investigating is this:

Ephesians 2:11-17 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without (outside of) Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

And, that doesn't mean

"Jews + Gentiles = Church";

rather, it's ... 

"God's Kingdom + Gentiles = God's Kingdom! (Just bigger!)"

That's all I can do for tonight, but I'll write more about it later.

 

Look:  if you don't WANT to take God's escape plan, that is between you and God. However, it is not in good taste to try and take others with you. There will be a rapture, and many of the church will be snatched up and escorted to heaven. You can wait a thousand years to see your mansion if you choose - but the rest of the Bride will see their mansion very soon - probably within the next 20 years. 

The truth is, you simply don't read the scriptures the way most of the church does. It is sad that you don't believe in the future 70th week - because it will come whether or not you believe in it. Your doubting God's word will not affect His bringing it to pass. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

50 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Look:  if you don't WANT to take God's escape plan, that is between you and God. However, it is not in good taste to try and take others with you. There will be a rapture, and many of the church will be snatched up and escorted to heaven. You can wait a thousand years to see your mansion if you choose - but the rest of the Bride will see their mansion very soon - probably within the next 20 years. 

The truth is, you simply don't read the scriptures the way most of the church does. It is sad that you don't believe in the future 70th week - because it will come whether or not you believe in it. Your doubting God's word will not affect His bringing it to pass. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Not if the Messiah isn't going back to the New Jerusalem, having other concerns on His mind!

In the first place, many of those who believe in the pretrib rapture would disagree with you that it's "God's escape plan." That mentality has been labeled as "escapism" and is rejected by pretribbers. God does not remove people out of the way before He "lowers the boom."

Generally speaking, He protects people THROUGH the wrath! He didn't take Noach and his family off the earth to bring on the Flood; He gave them instructions on building an ark (a box) so they and the air-breathing animals could live THROUGH the Flood!

God didn't remove the friends of Daniel from the furnace of fire; He stayed there with them THROUGH the fire!

God didn't remove Joseph from the dungeon when he was falsely accused; He stayed with Joseph THROUGH the dungeon years until he was most needed at Pharaoh's side!

God didn't remove the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, nor did He prevent the Destroyer from passing through the land of Goshen within Egypt! He devised the plan of putting the lamb's blood upon the door posts and on the lintel to protect them THROUGH the Passover!

God didn't air-lift the children of Israel over the Red Sea and away from Pharaoh's army! He made a way of escape THROUGH the Red Sea!

However, more importantly WE DON'T NEED an "escape plan!" We won't be on the receiving end of God's wrath; we'll be with the Messiah on the GIVING end of God's wrath!

Look, I have no doubt there will be a "rapture" but its purpose is NOT so that "many of the church will be snatched up and escorted to heaven!" It really shouldn't come as a shock, but the Scriptures are NOT all about us who call ourselves "Christians!" After bawling out the Torah-teachers ("scribes") and Separatists ("Pharisees") for their abominations that led up to Yeshua`s public declaration against them, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yeshua` left them "desolate" as promised in Daniel 9:27. These atrocities they committed were the abominations that led to their desolation. And, as I've said before in other locations, this last phrase comes from Psalm 118:26. Here it is in context:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee (Hebrew: y'howshiyah na', transliterated into Greek as "hosanna" = "Rescue-us now"), O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

And, the phrase in Hebrew in verse 26 is ...

"Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." = "Happy the-comer in-name of-YHWH."

Now, to pluralize a masculine noun (and adjective) in Hebrew, one adds the "-iym" suffix, spelled "-chireq-yod-mem." What's interesting is that this phrase is seen at all the seaports and airports in Israel:

The "-yod-mem" suffix (no vowel pointing) is seen in both words (on the left end), "Baruwkh haba'" becomes... 
"Baruwkhiym haba'iym." It means, "Welcome, comers." It's their WELCOME sign!

Furthermore, the portion "in-[the]-name-of" means "on-the-authority-of." So, this same phrase, Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH, translates to "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

Yeshua` promised that He would not return until the JEWS OF JERUSALEM welcome Him, the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Christ Jesus"), with the words, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

The first half of Daniel's 70th Seven ("Week") was the "public ministry" (or rather, the offer of the Kingdom to Israel) which occurred during the final 3.5 years at the end of Yeshua`s First Advent. It was HE who divided the 70 Sevens, and He didn't divide them at the end of the 69th Seven and before the 70th Seven. He split the 70th Seven in half and split it at the "midpoint." Thus, the first half of the 70th Seven is ALREADY OVER! The Second half won't commence until Yeshua` returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel once again! This time, they will bow to Him as Mashiyach HaBen-Daviyd, "Messiah The Son of David" - the VICTORIOUS AND CONQUERING MESSIAH!

So, once again, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a pretribulational rapture, if one counts the Seventieth Seven as the "Tribulation Period," since it's already half over!

The prophecy made to Daniel in Daniel 9 reads like this:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (the children of Israel, particularly, the children of Yhudah or Judah, the "Jews") and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 Sevens), and (+) threescore and two weeks (62 Sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (the Romans); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah from verse 26) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (the Davidic Covenant, 2 Samuel 7:12-16) and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Heb. 10:10-14), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (Matt. 23:38), even until the consummation (the end), and that determined (as their sentence) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews of Jerusalem).

So, it's not about "Christians"; it's about the Jews of Jerusalem accepting Him and welcoming Him as God's Anointed One, God's MESSIAH! When they can do that willingly, THEN He shall return!

I wrote a poem/song some time ago that goes like this:

Seven hundred years before His timely birth,
A prophet of great boldness came to tell the men of earth
That there would come a powerful man anointed to be King;
Of His surprising miracles the populace would sing:

Of healing pow’r to make blind see and deaf to hear His voice,
Of pow’r to even raise the dead and cause men to rejoice!
Of all these things and so much more the children would sing songs,
But …only children welcomed Him to remedy their wrongs.

A song was written years before Isaiah was a child,
Predicting that Christ won’t fit into systems then gone wild:
“The builders of the pyr’mid said, ‘The stone does not fit in!’
When they were done, it capped the work and much to their chagrin!”

The Messiah was rejected, ridiculed, and slain …;
But to the shock of all involved, He came to life again!
But, He did not then cap the work of which the song declared.
Instead, He left the earth until He hears the message dared:

“We care not whether you were He of whom the Christians claim;
We only know we need you now, or we will die in shame!
We’ve heard of you, Messiah fair, and of your pow’r we read;
Please come and rescue us, dear Sire, in this our time of need!

“If you won’t save us now, there will be no one left to save.
The nation Isra’el is doomed, and we can see our grave.”
And in the nation Isra’el’s gloomiest, darkest hour,
Will come the Prince (not yet the King) in majesty and pow’r!

And when they see Messiah diving down with kingly steed,
And all the thousands following to aid the ones in need,
Then shouts of victory will echo all across the land
With sighs of relief and gasps of awe as He saves with mighty hand!

And then will He be made a King, accepted now at last!
And then a King o’er many kings as one by one they ask!
Ah, but for now He is the Christ——anointed to be King,
And although He is not King now, he will be in the “Spring ….”

For now, the “Winter” slowly drags with vernal guarantees,
And time goes on at God’s own pace with thoughtfulness and ease.
He fills each age with purpose and a reason for each pause:
To get the most from every age and weed out all the flaws.

So boast not, Christian Gentile, for you are grafted in
To share Messiah’s bounty prematurely! Do not sin!
If God spared not the people whom He worked with many years,
What will He do if you should speak against them without tears?

The Scriptures say so little ’bout this time in which we live,
Could it be that we’ve read into it much more than He did give?
Why must we feel that we’re the ones for whom the sun must shine?
Why do we think we’re all who’ll be at the marriage feast to dine?

Get rid of that old foolish pride! We’re grafted in, I say!
This high-and-mighty attitude will come to humbler day!
It should be crushing blow to think that Christ’s return will be
When Isra’el cries, “If you will come, we’ll surely kneel to Thee.”

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Not if the Messiah isn't going back to the New Jerusalem, having other concerns on His mind!

In the first place, many of those who believe in the pretrib rapture would disagree with you that it's "God's escape plan." That mentality has been labeled as "escapism" and is rejected by pretribbers. God does not remove people out of the way before He "lowers the boom."

Generally speaking, He protects people THROUGH the wrath! He didn't take Noach and his family off the earth to bring on the Flood; He gave them instructions on building an ark (a box) so they and the air-breathing animals could live THROUGH the Flood!

God didn't remove the friends of Daniel from the furnace of fire; He stayed there with them THROUGH the fire!

God didn't remove Joseph from the dungeon when he was falsely accused; He stayed with Joseph THROUGH the dungeon years until he was most needed at Pharaoh's side!

God didn't remove the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, nor did He prevent the Destroyer from passing through the land of Goshen within Egypt! He devised the plan of putting the lamb's blood upon the door posts and on the lintel to protect them THROUGH the Passover!

God didn't air-lift the children of Israel over the Red Sea and away from Pharaoh's army! He made a way of escape THROUGH the Red Sea!

However, more importantly WE DON'T NEED an "escape plan!" We won't be on the receiving end of God's wrath; we'll be with the Messiah on the GIVING end of God's wrath!

Look, I have no doubt there will be a "rapture" but its purpose is NOT so that "many of the church will be snatched up and escorted to heaven!" It really shouldn't come as a shock, but the Scriptures are NOT all about us who call ourselves "Christians!" After bawling out the Torah-teachers ("scribes") and Separatists ("Pharisees") for their abominations that led up to Yeshua`s public declaration against them, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yeshua` left them "desolate" as promised in Daniel 9:27. These atrocities they committed were the abominations that led to their desolation. And, as I've said before in other locations, this last phrase comes from Psalm 118:26. Here it is in context:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee (Hebrew: y'howshiyah na', transliterated into Greek as "hosanna" = "Rescue-us now"), O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

And, the phrase in Hebrew in verse 26 is ...

"Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." = "Happy the-comer in-name of-YHWH."

Now, to pluralize a masculine noun (and adjective) in Hebrew, one adds the "-iym" suffix, spelled "-chireq-yod-mem." What's interesting is that this phrase is seen at all the seaports and airports in Israel:

The "-yod-mem" suffix (no vowel pointing) is seen in both words (on the left end), "Baruwkh haba'" becomes... 
"Baruwkhiym haba'iym." It means, "Welcome, comers." It's their WELCOME sign!

Furthermore, the portion "in-[the]-name-of" means "on-the-authority-of." So, this same phrase, Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH, translates to "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

Yeshua` promised that He would not return until the JEWS OF JERUSALEM welcome Him, the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Christ Jesus"), with the words, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

The first half of Daniel's 70th Seven ("Week") was the "public ministry" (or rather, the offer of the Kingdom to Israel) which occurred during the final 3.5 years at the end of Yeshua`s First Advent. It was HE who divided the 70 Sevens, and He didn't divide them at the end of the 69th Seven and before the 70th Seven. He split the 70th Seven in half and split it at the "midpoint." Thus, the first half of the 70th Seven is ALREADY OVER! The Second half won't commence until Yeshua` returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel once again! This time, they will bow to Him as Mashiyach HaBen-Daviyd, "Messiah The Son of David" - the VICTORIOUS AND CONQUERING MESSIAH!

So, once again, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a pretribulational rapture, if one counts the Seventieth Seven as the "Tribulation Period," since it's already half over!

The prophecy made to Daniel in Daniel 9 reads like this:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (the children of Israel, particularly, the children of Yhudah or Judah, the "Jews") and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (7 Sevens), and (+) threescore and two weeks (62 Sevens): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (the Romans); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah from verse 26) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (the Davidic Covenant, 2 Samuel 7:12-16) and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Heb. 10:10-14), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (Matt. 23:38), even until the consummation (the end), and that determined (as their sentence) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews of Jerusalem).

So, it's not about "Christians"; it's about the Jews of Jerusalem accepting Him and welcoming Him as God's Anointed One, God's MESSIAH! When they can do that willingly, THEN He shall return!

I wrote a poem/song some time ago that goes like this:

Seven hundred years before His timely birth,
A prophet of great boldness came to tell the men of earth
That there would come a powerful man anointed to be King;
Of His surprising miracles the populace would sing:

Of healing pow’r to make blind see and deaf to hear His voice,
Of pow’r to even raise the dead and cause men to rejoice!
Of all these things and so much more the children would sing songs,
But …only children welcomed Him to remedy their wrongs.

A song was written years before Isaiah was a child,
Predicting that Christ won’t fit into systems then gone wild:
“The builders of the pyr’mid said, ‘The stone does not fit in!’
When they were done, it capped the work and much to their chagrin!”

The Messiah was rejected, ridiculed, and slain …;
But to the shock of all involved, He came to life again!
But, He did not then cap the work of which the song declared.
Instead, He left the earth until He hears the message dared:

“We care not whether you were He of whom the Christians claim;
We only know we need you now, or we will die in shame!
We’ve heard of you, Messiah fair, and of your pow’r we read;
Please come and rescue us, dear Sire, in this our time of need!

“If you won’t save us now, there will be no one left to save.
The nation Isra’el is doomed, and we can see our grave.”
And in the nation Isra’el’s gloomiest, darkest hour,
Will come the Prince (not yet the King) in majesty and pow’r!

And when they see Messiah diving down with kingly steed,
And all the thousands following to aid the ones in need,
Then shouts of victory will echo all across the land
With sighs of relief and gasps of awe as He saves with mighty hand!

And then will He be made a King, accepted now at last!
And then a King o’er many kings as one by one they ask!
Ah, but for now He is the Christ——anointed to be King,
And although He is not King now, he will be in the “Spring ….”

For now, the “Winter” slowly drags with vernal guarantees,
And time goes on at God’s own pace with thoughtfulness and ease.
He fills each age with purpose and a reason for each pause:
To get the most from every age and weed out all the flaws.

So boast not, Christian Gentile, for you are grafted in
To share Messiah’s bounty prematurely! Do not sin!
If God spared not the people whom He worked with many years,
What will He do if you should speak against them without tears?

The Scriptures say so little ’bout this time in which we live,
Could it be that we’ve read into it much more than He did give?
Why must we feel that we’re the ones for whom the sun must shine?
Why do we think we’re all who’ll be at the marriage feast to dine?

Get rid of that old foolish pride! We’re grafted in, I say!
This high-and-mighty attitude will come to humbler day!
It should be crushing blow to think that Christ’s return will be
When Isra’el cries, “If you will come, we’ll surely kneel to Thee.”

Thank God, we as Gentiles are grafted into the tree of life! 

There is still room for some Hebrews to become a part of the tree too.

He is the vine, we are the branches. Let's bare MUCH fruit for HIM!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thank God, we as Gentiles are grafted into the tree of life! 

There is still room for some Hebrews to become a part of the tree too.

He is the vine, we are the branches. Let's bare MUCH fruit for HIM!

Shalom, iamlamad.

Don't mix metaphors, please. Those of us who are Gentiles are grafted into God's KINGDOM likened to a cultivated olive tree. Actually, the NATURAL branches are more likely to be grafted in than Gentiles ever were! Furthermore, Gentiles, likened to olea oleaster bush branches that can be grafted in AMONG the natural branches, but it was THE NATURAL BRANCHES who were first within that Tree.

The "vine/branches" metaphor is about grape branches drawing nourishment from a grapevine and is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT analogy that Yeshua` drew in a completely different context. Don't mix the two; there's no precedent for it.

It's not "Jews + Gentiles = 'Church'";

It's "God's Kingdom + Gentiles = God's Kingdom (BIGGER)."

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Don't mix metaphors, please. Those of us who are Gentiles are grafted into God's KINGDOM likened to a cultivated olive tree. Actually, the NATURAL branches are more likely to be grafted in than Gentiles ever were! Furthermore, Gentiles, likened to olea oleaster bush branches that can be grafted in AMONG the natural branches, but it was THE NATURAL BRANCHES who were first within that Tree.

The "vine/branches" metaphor is about grape branches drawing nourishment from a grapevine and is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT analogy that Yeshua` drew in a completely different context. Don't mix the two; there's no precedent for it.

It's not "Jews + Gentiles = 'Church'";

It's "God's Kingdom + Gentiles = God's Kingdom (BIGGER)."

I disagree. If we are talking "church" there is no difference: distinctions (Jew or Gentile) disappear: what is left is one new person in Christ. 

There is the Olive Tree. There are branches. I believe the Olive tree is Israel's tree: God has allowed Gentiles to be grafted in. You are right: a Jew would fit more naturally on that tree. Is the tree God's kingdom? I would say only a part. Does not the branches on a tree receive nourishment from the tree? The metaphors are similar. 

[iamlamad]

On 1/2/2019 at 11:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Not if the Messiah isn't going back to the New Jerusalem, having other concerns on His mind!

In the first place, many of those who believe in the pretrib rapture would disagree with you that it's "God's escape plan." That mentality has been labeled as "escapism" and is rejected by pretribbers. God does not remove people out of the way before He "lowers the boom."

Generally speaking, He protects people THROUGH the wrath! He didn't take Noach and his family off the earth to bring on the Flood; He gave them instructions on building an ark (a box) so they and the air-breathing animals could live THROUGH the Flood!

God didn't remove the friends of Daniel from the furnace of fire; He stayed there with them THROUGH the fire!

God didn't remove Joseph from the dungeon when he was falsely accused; He stayed with Joseph THROUGH the dungeon years until he was most needed at Pharaoh's side!

God didn't remove the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, nor did He prevent the Destroyer from passing through the land of Goshen within Egypt! He devised the plan of putting the lamb's blood upon the door posts and on the lintel to protect them THROUGH the Passover!

God didn't air-lift the children of Israel over the Red Sea and away from Pharaoh's army! He made a way of escape THROUGH the Red Sea!

However, more importantly WE DON'T NEED an "escape plan!" We won't be on the receiving end of God's wrath; we'll be with the Messiah on the GIVING end of God's wrath!

Look, I have no doubt there will be a "rapture" but its purpose is NOT so that "many of the church will be snatched up and escorted to heaven!" It really shouldn't come as a shock, but the Scriptures are NOT all about us who call ourselves "Christians!" After bawling out the Torah-teachers ("scribes") and Separatists ("Pharisees") for their abominations that led up to Yeshua`s public declaration against them, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Yeshua` left them "desolate" as promised in Daniel 9:27. These atrocities they committed were the abominations that led to their desolation. And, as I've said before in other locations, this last phrase comes from Psalm 118:26. Here it is in context:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee (Hebrew: y'howshiyah na', transliterated into Greek as "hosanna" = "Rescue-us now"), O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

And, the phrase in Hebrew in verse 26 is ...

"Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." = "Happy the-comer in-name of-YHWH."

Now, to pluralize a masculine noun (and adjective) in Hebrew, one adds the "-iym" suffix, spelled "-chireq-yod-mem." What's interesting is that this phrase is seen at all the seaports and airports in Israel:

The "-yod-mem" suffix (no vowel pointing) is seen in both words (on the left end), "Baruwkh haba'" becomes... 
"Baruwkhiym haba'iym." It means, "Welcome, comers." It's their WELCOME sign!

Furthermore, the portion "in-[the]-name-of" means "on-the-authority-of." So, this same phrase, Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH, translates to "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

Yeshua` promised that He would not return until the JEWS OF JERUSALEM welcome Him, the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Christ Jesus"), with the words, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

The first half of Daniel's 70th Seven ("Week") was the "public ministry" (or rather, the offer of the Kingdom to Israel) which occurred during the final 3.5 years at the end of Yeshua`s First Advent. It was HE who divided the 70 Sevens, and He didn't divide them at the end of the 69th Seven and before the 70th Seven. He split the 70th Seven in half and split it at the "midpoint." Thus, the first half of the 70th Seven is ALREADY OVER! The Second half won't commence until Yeshua` returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel once again! This time, they will bow to Him as Mashiyach HaBen-Daviyd, "Messiah The Son of David" - the VICTORIOUS AND CONQUERING MESSIAH!

So, once again, it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a pretribulational rapture, if one counts the Seventieth Seven as the "Tribulation Period," since it's already half over!

I take an apple, cut it in half, and put half in the refer.....then eat the other half. A week later I take it out of the refer.....and divide it in half. How strange: now I have two quarters, not two halves! 

Sorry, your theory is only a theory  - and a theory that does not fly. 

One MUST halve a whole apple to cut it in half and end up with two halves. 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. If we are talking "church" there is no difference: distinctions (Jew or Gentile) disappear: what is left is one new person in Christ. 

There is the Olive Tree. There are branches. I believe the Olive tree is Israel's tree: God has allowed Gentiles to be grafted in. You are right: a Jew would fit more naturally on that tree. Is the tree God's kingdom? I would say only a part. Does not the branches on a tree receive nourishment from the tree? The metaphors are similar. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

First of all, there's no magic in the word "church." A "church," an "ekkleesia," is simply a "called-out" assembly. It's just a group of people called out for a common purpose. It's not any different than the Greek word "sunagoogee" or "synagogue," meaning "a gathering together." Think of the word "ekkleesia" as a collective noun, like a "school" of fish, a "herd" of cattle, or a "flock" of sheep. Yeshua` didn't die for a group of people; He died for people. He didn't give any special meaning to the word "church," and He CERTAINLY didn't die for an organization or a corporation!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a "Capital C, Universal Church," as Moody Radio's Janet Parshall likes to put it. A "church" is simply a "called-out" group of people and unless that group can be universal in nature, it's referring to a LOCAL "church"; that is, a "group" that is local and can meet together on a regular basis. That's why in the Scriptures there are references to the "churches!" The ONLY time there will be a "universal church" is when we are all called together at Yeshua`s Second Coming. As I've said before, it's hard for a finger in Albuquerque to scratch a nose in Timbuktu!

Now, what you are forgetting in the sentence, "If we are talking "church" there is no difference: distinctions (Jew or Gentile) disappear: what is left is one new person in Christ," is that is ONLY true WITHIN the Messiah! Outside of the Messiah, there is still a distinction between the "Jews" and the "Gentiles." And, there will ALWAYS be a special place in God's heart for the children of Israel. And, we read this in Romans 11:

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' (the ancestor's) sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling!) 

30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why the Great Commission is written as...

Acts 1:8 (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both (1) in Jerusalem, and (2) in all Judaea, and (3) in Samaria, and (4) unto the uttermost part of the earth.

These are LITERAL places in the order in which we should be witnessing! Our ancestors in the faith were able to do this literally, and then there was a time when the Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire. Today, we can go to Jerusalem once again and the Land of Israel is considered the Homeland of the Jews and the Southern Kingdom has a presence once more in the Land! A "Jew" or "Yhudiy" is a descendant of "Yhudah" or "Judah." The lineage of important people in Yhudah included the following:

1 Chronicles 2:1-17 (KJV)

1 These are the sons of Israel; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun, 2 Dan, Joseph, and Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher.

3 The sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah: which three were born unto him of the daughter of Shua the Canaanitess. And Er, the firstborn of Judah, was evil in the sight of the LORD; and he slew him. 4 And Tamar his daughter in law bare him Pharez and Zerah. All the sons of Judah were five.

5 The sons of Pharez; Hezron, and Hamul. 6And the sons of Zerah; Zimri, and Ethan, and Heman, and Calcol, and Dara: five of them in all. 7And the sons of Carmi; Achar, the troubler of Israel, who transgressed in the thing accursed. 8And the sons of Ethan; Azariah.

9The sons also of Hezron, that were born unto him; Jerahmeel, and Ram, and Chelubai. 10And Ram begat Amminadab; and Amminadab begat Nahshon, prince of the children of Judah; 11And Nahshon begat Salma, and Salma begat Boaz, 12And Boaz begat Obed, and Obed begat Jesse,

13 And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.

So, we also have two lineages for Yeshua` recorded in Matthew 1 and Luke 3. The Royal lineage is in Matthew's account, but He could not have physically come from that lineage since there was a curse placed upon that lineage. The Physical lineage is in Luke's account, the actual line of Miryam ("Mary"):

Luke 3:23-33 (KJV)

23 And Jesus (Yeshua`) himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son (son-in-law) of Heli (Mary's father),
24 Which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi,
which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph, 
25 Which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Amos,
which was the son of Naum,
which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge, 
26 Which was the son of Maath,
which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Semei,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Juda, 
27 Which was the son of Joanna,
which was the son of Rhesa,
which was the son of Zorobabel,
which was the son of Salathiel,
which was the son of Neri, 
28 Which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Addi,
which was the son of Cosam,
which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er, 
29 Which was the son of Jose,
which was the son of Eliezer,
which was the son of Jorim,
which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi, 
30 Which was the son of Simeon,
which was the son of Juda,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim, 
31 Which was the son of Melea,
which was the son of Menan,
which was the son of Mattatha,
which was the son of Nathan,
which was the son of David, 
32 Which was the son of Jesse,
which was the son of Obed,
which was the son of Booz,
which was the son of Salmon,
which was the son of Naasson, 
33 Which was the son of Aminadab,
which was the son of Aram,
which was the son of Esrom,
which was the son of Phares,
which was the son of Juda,...

The only thing I want you to get out of all this is that all these people were FAMILY!!! "Mishpachah" in Hebrew! And, in the Resurrection, they shall STILL be family!

Pick any three (or four) in order, and you have a son, a father, a grandfather, and a great grandfather! Or, from the other direction, a father, a son, a grandson, and a great grandson! From in the middle, one has a grandfather, a father, a son, and a grandson!

For instance, Boaz, the same one who married Ruth, was Obed's father, and Obed's son was Jesse, King David's father! So, David's great grandfather was Boaz!

ALL of these men listed in Luke were JEWS, including Yeshua` Himself! Don't think for a minute that Yeshua` would throw all that away or count it as nothing!

[Retrobyter]

On 1/4/2019 at 12:38 PM, iamlamad said:

I take an apple, cut it in half, and put half in the refer.....then eat the other half. A week later I take it out of the refer.....and divide it in half. How strange: now I have two quarters, not two halves! 

Sorry, your theory is only a theory  - and a theory that does not fly. 

One MUST halve a whole apple to cut it in half and end up with two halves. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but this analogy doesn't "fly!" The "apple" was only cut ONCE, but YESHUA` HIMSELF did the cutting! That's how it got it's status of "being cut in half" in the prophecy in the first place!

You've got to ask yourself: Which came first? The plan or the prophecy?

Look at it again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy. 

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (7 wks + 62 wks) : the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two  weeks (> 62 wks, not = 62 wks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (of the prince that shall come = of Titus) [= the Romans] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (1 wk): and in the midst of the week (0.5 wk) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Matt. 27:50-53; Heb. 10:1-22), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matt. 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate (Matt. 23:38), even until the consummation (Matt. 23:39), and that determined (the punishment of desolations) shall be poured upon the (ones made) desolate.

(By the way, it threw me a little that you call it a "refer"; we call it a "fridge," short for "refrigerator.")

Edited January 6, 2019 by Retrobyter
wrong "threw"

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but this analogy doesn't "fly!" The "apple" was only cut ONCE, but YESHUA` HIMSELF did the cutting! That's how it got it's status of "being cut in half" in the prophecy in the first place!

You've got to ask yourself: Which came first? The plan or the prophecy?

Look at it again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy. 

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (7 wks + 62 wks) : the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two  weeks (> 62 wks, not = 62 wks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (of the prince that shall come = of Titus) [= the Romans] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (1 wk): and in the midst of the week (0.5 wk) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Matt. 27:50-53; Heb. 10:1-22), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matt. 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate (Matt. 23:38), even until the consummation (Matt. 23:39), and that determined (the punishment of desolations) shall be poured upon the (ones made) desolate.

(By the way, it through me a little that you call it a "refer"; we call it a "fridge," short for "refrigerator.")

You are forgetting the infamous "gap!" Yes, AFTER the 69 weeks Jesus was cut off. But read it again: it was BEFORE the 70th week. That is simply the way Daniel wrote it. The 70th WEEK is still future.

There is proof in Revelation: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. Notice that shortly after the 7th trumpet those in Judea flee - having seen the abomination that Jesus spoke of.  From Daniel we learn that said abomination is what divides the week.  You want to divide a half apple and still end up with a half....it just doesn't work. There MUST be a whole apple or a whole week for it to be divided and end up with the last half as 1260 days. 

What did John write about BEFORE the 7th trumpet midpoint? We find the first 6 trumpet judgments - very much a part of the 70th week. John did not write of any time such as so many days or so many months for the first half, but we don't need it to know there is a first half. 

27 And he (a copy or anti-type of the prince who destroyed the city [Titus]) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years) and in the midst of the week (1260 -midpoint-1260) he (the anti-type of the prince that destroyed the city) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (This same thing happened as a TYPE with Antiochus: Dan. 8:11. The moment a heathen entered the most holy place, the temple is desecrated and the sacrifices MUST cease: Paul told us the man of sin will copy what Antiochus did - as the antitype [Antiochus being a type] - and profane the temple, stopping the sacrifices), and for the overspreading of abominations he (the anti-type of Titus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (Rev.19:20), And that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

There is more than one way to read this passage. The Amplified puts it this way:

²⁶ Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. ²⁷ And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

The truth is, Revelation is the best amplification of what Daniel wrote.  John expanded the 70th week into 9 chapters! 

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are forgetting the infamous "gap!" Yes, AFTER the 69 weeks Jesus was cut off. But read it again: it was BEFORE the 70th week. That is simply the way Daniel wrote it. The 70th WEEK is still future.

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, I'm NOT forgetting the "infamous gap!" Your gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, however, has NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE! The ONLY place you find this "infamous gap" is within the theory of pretribulational rapturism! That's it! That's all!

The TRUE gap is the one that Yeshua` the Messiah introduced by pronouncing the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate!" It was HE who inserted the "gap!"

Yeshua`s right to the throne of David was to be found in the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, and as was true for David, there were to be seven years that His tribe, Yhudah, the Jews, were to accept Him as their King before He became the King of all Israel.

Look carefully at the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD,

"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."' 

'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (If he is twisted into iniquity), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (Isaiah 53:1-12): 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Now, let's go back to the early days of David's Kingship:

2 Samuel 2:1-4 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah? And the LORD said unto him, Go up. And David said, Whither shall I go up? And he said, Unto Hebron. 2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came (the Jews came), and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah (king of the Jews).

2 Samuel 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel. 3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

1 Kings 2:10-11 (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 29:

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

This same scenario should have happened in Yeshua`s life, as well. However, the Jewish leaders couldn't yield their power to the One who was anointed by God to be their King! Instead, they rejected God's Choice for their King and crucified Him instead! Only this was He of whom God said, "I will be His Father, and He shall be my Son!" and they crucified the very Son of God!

This "seven years" was to be the time that Yeshua` was to be the King of the Jews, from the time He first offered them the Kingdom to the final time they slapped His hand away! And, after three and a half years, they crucified their King!

It was THEIR rejection and THEIR abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) that led to Yeshua` pronouncing them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38. Let's read about their abominations:

Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries (memory verse boxes worn on the forehead), and enlarge the borders of their garments (they lengthen the tsittsit [tassles] on their talitiym [prayer shawls]), 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (Teacher), even Christ (the Messiah); and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven (who is in the sky). 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ (the Messiah). 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain (swat) at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

THESE are their abominations that led to their desolation:

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!

He didn't lightly come to this decision! However, once it was done, it was done! And, their ONLY way out is to complete His prophecy: They must say the words, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," as written in Psalm 118:26, and they must do so FROM "the House of the Lord," a new Temple!

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There is proof in Revelation: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. Notice that shortly after the 7th trumpet those in Judea flee - having seen the abomination that Jesus spoke of.  From Daniel we learn that said abomination is what divides the week.  You want to divide a half apple and still end up with a half....it just doesn't work. There MUST be a whole apple or a whole week for it to be divided and end up with the last half as 1260 days. 

Sorry, but this is pure fiction. The seventh trumpet marks the beginning of the Millennium, which begins with the last three and a half years of Daniel's 70th Week. Notice:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry (reference to Psalm 2), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (the First Resurrection); and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (which destroy the Land).

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (into the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

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What did John write about BEFORE the 7th trumpet midpoint? We find the first 6 trumpet judgments - very much a part of the 70th week. John did not write of any time such as so many days or so many months for the first half, but we don't need it to know there is a first half. 

Yochanan ("John") wrote about the first seven seals, as well, and the seventh seal SHALL BE the first 6 trumpet judgments. However, from the sixth seal to the fifth trumpet, we see a meteor shower. Indeed, because many of these meteors land, it is a "meteorite shower!" These events are EXACTLY the signs in the sun, moon, and stars of Matthew 24! These don't signify the first half of the tribulation; they signify the END of the tribulation!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (the Land) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (brightness). 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end (the lower end) of heaven (of the sky) to the other (the upper end).

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27 And he (a copy or anti-type of the prince who destroyed the city [Titus]) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years) and in the midst of the week (1260 -midpoint-1260) he (the anti-type of the prince that destroyed the city) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (This same thing happened as a TYPE with Antiochus: Dan. 8:11. The moment a heathen entered the most holy place, the temple is desecrated and the sacrifices MUST cease: Paul told us the man of sin will copy what Antiochus did - as the antitype [Antiochus being a type] - and profane the temple, stopping the sacrifices), and for the overspreading of abominations he (the anti-type of Titus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (Rev.19:20), And that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

This view has a major problem: The "he" of verse 27 CANNOT be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26, not in reality [Titus] or an "anti-type" [Antiochus or the Antichrist, the "man of sin"].

First, it's visible in the English translation of the 1611 KJV. The phrase is "the people (of the prince that shall come) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The portion in parentheses is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE. As such, the object of the preposition cannot be a major player in the sentence. It cannot be either the subject, a direct object, or an indirect object in the sentence. Taking this prepositional phrase out of the way, the sentence states, "the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary," referring to the Romans in 70 A.D. In Hebrew, the sentence doesn't end in verse 26 but continues THROUGHOUT verse 27, as well!

Also, in Hebrew, there is a language structure called a "noun construct state," that acts like our prepositional phrase. In fact, the translation of the "noun construct state" will lead to the introduction of the preposition "of" between the nouns. This "noun construct state" has two (or more) nouns put back-to-back and is translated with the word "of" between them, like, "ben Israel" means "son (of) Israel." Like in the English prepositional phrase, the second noun in the noun construct state cannot be a major player in the sentence; that is, it cannot act as a subject, a direct object, or even an indirect object. Therefore, the verbs that continue the sentence in verse 27 (for which a "he" is added in translation) cannot have the "prince that shall come," where "prince" is the second noun in the noun construct state, be the antecedent subject of those verbs! Instead, we have to go back farther in verse 26 to the next singular, masculine noun that can be the subject, "Messiah."

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There is more than one way to read this passage. The Amplified puts it this way:

²⁶ Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. ²⁷ And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.”

The truth is, Revelation is the best amplification of what Daniel wrote.  John expanded the 70th week into 9 chapters! 

 

I'll just conclude with this statement: Even an "Amplified Bible" can have a bias in interpretation; however, is it being true and accurate according to the rules of Hebrew? And, categorically, in this case, it is NOT following the rules of Hebrew.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Retrobyter
to correct a spelling