Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, I'm NOT forgetting the "infamous gap!" Your gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, however, has NO BASIS IN SCRIPTURE! The ONLY place you find this "infamous gap" is within the theory of pretribulational rapturism! That's it! That's all!

The TRUE gap is the one that Yeshua` the Messiah introduced by pronouncing the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate!" It was HE who inserted the "gap!"

Yeshua`s right to the throne of David was to be found in the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, and as was true for David, there were to be seven years that His tribe, Yhudah, the Jews, were to accept Him as their King before He became the King of all Israel.

Look carefully at the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD,

"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."' 

'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (If he is twisted into iniquity), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (Isaiah 53:1-12): 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Now, let's go back to the early days of David's Kingship:

2 Samuel 2:1-4 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah? And the LORD said unto him, Go up. And David said, Whither shall I go up? And he said, Unto Hebron. 2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came (the Jews came), and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah (king of the Jews).

2 Samuel 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel. 3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

1 Kings 2:10-11 (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 29:

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

This same scenario should have happened in Yeshua`s life, as well. However, the Jewish leaders couldn't yield their power to the One who was anointed by God to be their King! Instead, they rejected God's Choice for their King and crucified Him instead! Only this was He of whom God said, "I will be His Father, and He shall be my Son!" and they crucified the very Son of God!

This "seven years" was to be the time that Yeshua` was to be the King of the Jews, from the time He first offered them the Kingdom to the final time they slapped His hand away! And, after three and a half years, they crucified their King!

It was THEIR rejection and THEIR abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) that led to Yeshua` pronouncing them "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38. Let's read about their abominations:

Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries (memory verse boxes worn on the forehead), and enlarge the borders of their garments (they lengthen the tsittsit [tassles] on their talitiym [prayer shawls]), 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (Teacher), even Christ (the Messiah); and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven (who is in the sky). 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ (the Messiah). 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain (swat) at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

THESE are their abominations that led to their desolation:

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!

He didn't lightly come to this decision! However, once it was done, it was done! And, their ONLY way out is to complete His prophecy: They must say the words, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," as written in Psalm 118:26, and they must do so FROM "the House of the Lord," a new Temple!

Sorry, but this is pure fiction. The seventh trumpet marks the beginning of the Millennium, which begins with the last three and a half years of Daniel's 70th Week. Notice:

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry (reference to Psalm 2), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (the First Resurrection); and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (which destroy the Land).

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (into the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Yochanan ("John") wrote about the first seven seals, as well, and the seventh seal SHALL BE the first 6 trumpet judgments. However, from the sixth seal to the fifth trumpet, we see a meteor shower. Indeed, because many of these meteors land, it is a "meteorite shower!" These events are EXACTLY the signs in the sun, moon, and stars of Matthew 24! These don't signify the first half of the tribulation; they signify the END of the tribulation!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (the Land) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (brightness). 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end (the lower end) of heaven (of the sky) to the other (the upper end).

This view has a major problem: The "he" of verse 27 CANNOT be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26, not in reality [Titus] or an "anti-type" [Antiochus or the Antichrist, the "man of sin"].

First, it's visible in the English translation of the 1611 KJV. The phrase is "the people (of the prince that shall come) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The portion in parentheses is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE. As such, the object of the preposition cannot be a major player in the sentence. It cannot be either the subject, a direct object, or an indirect object in the sentence. Taking this prepositional phrase out of the way, the sentence states, "the people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary," referring to the Romans in 70 A.D. In Hebrew, the sentence doesn't end in verse 26 but continues THROUGHOUT verse 27, as well!

Also, in Hebrew, there is a language structure called a "noun construct state," that acts like our prepositional phrase. In fact, the translation of the "noun construct state" will lead to the introduction of the preposition "of" between the nouns. This "noun construct state" has two (or more) nouns put back-to-back and is translated with the word "of" between them, like, "ben Israel" means "son (of) Israel." Like in the English prepositional phrase, the second noun in the noun construct state cannot be a major player in the sentence; that is, it cannot act as a subject, a direct object, or even an indirect object. Therefore, the verbs that continue the sentence in verse 27 (for which a "he" is added in translation) cannot have the "prince that shall come," where "prince" is the second noun in the noun construct state, be the antecedent subject of those verbs! Instead, we have to go back farther in verse 26 to the next singular, masculine noun that can be the subject, "Messiah."

I'll just conclude with this statement: Even an "Amplified Bible" can have a bias in interpretation; however, is it being true and accurate according to the rules of Hebrew? And, categorically, in this case, it is NOT following the rules of Hebrew.

You and I are not going to agree on these things until we come to the place where we will know even as we are now known - heaven!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You and I are not going to agree on these things until we come to the place where we will know even as we are now known - heaven!

Shalom, iamlamad.

You mean "the Resurrection." What most people call "heaven" is really the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22. We'll meet each other before the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. We'll meet in the Second Coming when Yeshua` sends out His messengers to resurrect the ones who have already died and transform the rest of us.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (KJV)

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

This passage is talking about "when that which is perfect (mature) is come," i.e., when everything becomes new.

In the future, prophecies shall all be fulfilled. Foreign languages won't be necessary. And, knowledge/teaching/wisdom will all become idle. This doesn't happen in "heaven"; it happens in eternity when we are living in the New Jerusalem and on the New Earth. The New Jerusalem will be our house; and the New Earth will be our backyard.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

You mean "the Resurrection." What most people call "heaven" is really the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22. We'll meet each other before the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. We'll meet in the Second Coming when Yeshua` sends out His messengers to resurrect the ones who have already died and transform the rest of us.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (KJV)

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

This passage is talking about "when that which is perfect (mature) is come," i.e., when everything becomes new.

In the future, prophecies shall all be fulfilled. Foreign languages won't be necessary. And, knowledge/teaching/wisdom will all become idle. This doesn't happen in "heaven"; it happens in eternity when we are living in the New Jerusalem and on the New Earth. The New Jerusalem will be our house; and the New Earth will be our backyard.

No, I really did mean heaven - you know, the place where the throne of God is.  SEE? Case in point: we disagree on most everything.  What you miss: the Bride of Christ get to see heaven before the 70th week: you know, Jesus went to build mansions for us, and will take us to them? Remember that passage? If I am changed (NOT dead when Jesus comes, I am then CHANGED, not resurrected. 

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, I really did mean heaven - you know, the place where the throne of God is.  SEE? Case in point: we disagree on most everything.  What you miss: the Bride of Christ get to see heaven before the 70th week: you know, Jesus went to build mansions for us, and will take us to them? Remember that passage? If I am changed (NOT dead when Jesus comes, I am then CHANGED, not resurrected. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I know you did. For whatever reason, you're like most Christians. You must have continuity of life, and therefore you believe in a "heaven," however, temporary it must be for now. My "continuity of life" is bound in the memory of my Creator God who is also my Father. If I die before the Messiah returns, I know that He shall resurrect me on that day. Therefore, I don't need a "temporary heaven" per se. I know that He can re-create me and improve me in the process.

See, Yeshua` ("Jesus") did indeed go to build mansions for us, but the passage you're talking about, John 14:1-3, never says that He takes us to them. Instead, all He promises is "I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also."

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

He also doesn't say where that will be! People who believe in the pretribulational rapture ASSUME that He means that He'll take us there, but He never says so. To the contrary, this same Yochanan ("John") tells us in the book of Revelation that those mansions in the New Jerusalem come HERE when the New Jerusalem comes to the New Earth (the old earth "remodeled" after the global Fire).

Revelation 21:1-4, 9-18 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (a new sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (the first sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (literally, "out of the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

...

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed (golden tube; a theodolite) to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed (tube), twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

It's also interesting to note that verse 4 isn't realized until AFTER the Millennium! That's another factor that proves that a "temporary heaven" and the Millennium won't be as "hunky dory" as one might otherwise conclude! There will still be tears, death, sorrow, crying, and pain both in a "temporary heaven" and in the Millennial Kingdom!

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I know you did. For whatever reason, you're like most Christians. You must have continuity of life, and therefore you believe in a "heaven," however, temporary it must be for now. My "continuity of life" is bound in the memory of my Creator God who is also my Father. If I die before the Messiah returns, I know that He shall resurrect me on that day. Therefore, I don't need a "temporary heaven" per se. I know that He can re-create me and improve me in the process.

See, Yeshua` ("Jesus") did indeed go to build mansions for us, but the passage you're talking about, John 14:1-3, never says that He takes us to them. Instead, all He promises is "I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may be also."

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

He also doesn't say where that will be! People who believe in the pretribulational rapture ASSUME that He means that He'll take us there, but He never says so. To the contrary, this same Yochanan ("John") tells us in the book of Revelation that those mansions in the New Jerusalem come HERE when the New Jerusalem comes to the New Earth (the old earth "remodeled" after the global Fire).

Revelation 21:1-4, 9-18 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (a new sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (the first sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (literally, "out of the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

...

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed (golden tube; a theodolite) to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed (tube), twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

It's also interesting to note that verse 4 isn't realized until AFTER the Millennium! That's another factor that proves that a "temporary heaven" and the Millennium won't be as "hunky dory" as one might otherwise conclude! There will still be tears, death, sorrow, crying, and pain both in a "temporary heaven" and in the Millennial Kingdom!

WHERE is He during the period of time covered by the 7th seal to the 7th vial? Well, the marriage is in heaven, as shown by chapter 19, so that must be where the church will be. It is not difficult. Rev. 19 shows Jesus return to earth to Armageddon. Therefore, in chapter 18 He is in heaven. And 17, and 16 etc.  We don't need to use imagination: God TELLS us where He will be. All we must do is believe John. Yes, of course New Jerusalem will come down, but not until we see a NEW heaven and earth. The thing is, WE COME with the city!

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHERE is He during the period of time covered by the 7th seal to the 7th vial? Well, the marriage is in heaven, as shown by chapter 19, so that must be where the church will be. It is not difficult. Rev. 19 shows Jesus return to earth to Armageddon. Therefore, in chapter 18 He is in heaven. And 17, and 16 etc.  We don't need to use imagination: God TELLS us where He will be. All we must do is believe John. Yes, of course New Jerusalem will come down, but not until we see a NEW heaven and earth. The thing is, WE COME with the city!

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, it's not quite that simple. There are considerations which you are not taking into account. First, let's look carefully at Revelation 19: How is Yeshua` seen?

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

According to this passage and other prophetic passages in Scripture, this is NOT His first arrival! 

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (to rescue).

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

And, what propagated this attack?

Isaiah 34:1-10 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

And,

Jeremiah 48:20-27 (KJV)

20 Moab is confounded; for it is broken down: howl and cry; tell ye it in Arnon, that Moab is spoiled,

21 And judgment is come upon the plain country; upon Holon, and upon Jahazah, and upon Mephaath, 22 And upon Dibon, and upon Nebo, and upon Bethdiblathaim, 23 And upon Kiriathaim, and upon Bethgamul, and upon Bethmeon, 24 And upon Kerioth, and upon Bozrah, and upon all the cities of the land of Moab, far or near. 25 The horn of Moab is cut off, and his arm is broken, saith the LORD. 26 Make ye him drunken: for he magnified himself against the LORD: Moab also shall wallow in his vomit, and he also shall be in derision. 27 For was not Israel a derision unto thee? was he found among thieves? for since thou spakest of him, thou skippedst for joy.

And,

Jeremiah 49:7-22 (KJV)

7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished?

8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.

9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.

10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.

11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me.

12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it. 13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.

14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle.

15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men.

16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

17 Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. 19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them. 21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea. 22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

And, that's just ONE consideration! More to come...

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, it's not quite that simple. There are considerations which you are not taking into account. First, let's look carefully at Revelation 19: How is Yeshua` seen?

Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

According to this passage and other prophetic passages in Scripture, this is NOT His first arrival! 

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (to rescue).

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation (rescue) unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

And, what propagated this attack?

Isaiah 34:1-10 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

And,

Jeremiah 48:20-27 (KJV)

20 Moab is confounded; for it is broken down: howl and cry; tell ye it in Arnon, that Moab is spoiled,

21 And judgment is come upon the plain country; upon Holon, and upon Jahazah, and upon Mephaath, 22 And upon Dibon, and upon Nebo, and upon Bethdiblathaim, 23 And upon Kiriathaim, and upon Bethgamul, and upon Bethmeon, 24 And upon Kerioth, and upon Bozrah, and upon all the cities of the land of Moab, far or near. 25 The horn of Moab is cut off, and his arm is broken, saith the LORD. 26 Make ye him drunken: for he magnified himself against the LORD: Moab also shall wallow in his vomit, and he also shall be in derision. 27 For was not Israel a derision unto thee? was he found among thieves? for since thou spakest of him, thou skippedst for joy.

And,

Jeremiah 49:7-22 (KJV)

7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts; Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished?

8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him.

9 If grapegatherers come to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes? if thieves by night, they will destroy till they have enough.

10 But I have made Esau bare, I have uncovered his secret places, and he shall not be able to hide himself: his seed is spoiled, and his brethren, and his neighbours, and he is not.

11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve them alive; and let thy widows trust in me.

12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it. 13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.

14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle.

15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men.

16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

17 Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. 18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. 19 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them. 21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea. 22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.

And, that's just ONE consideration! More to come...

All these things will take place AFTER the marriage and supper and AFTER He leaves heaven.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All these things will take place AFTER the marriage and supper and AFTER He leaves heaven.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, I think you ASSUME too much. You ASSUME that the marriage and supper take place IN this place called "heaven," but the truth is that "heaven" simply means "the sky," and in particular, the "atmosphere" of this planet. You absolutely MUST learn to differentiate between "heaven" (Greek: ouranos) and "heavenly" or "celestial" (Greek: epouranios). They do NOT mean the same thing.

Secondly, Yeshua` said, 

Matthew 26:26-29 (KJV)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said,

"Take, eat; this is my body." 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,

"Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

This is said at the END of His offer of the Kingdom to the children of Israel. At the beginning of His offer, we read about His first recorded miracle:

John 2:1-11 (KJV)

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted (lacked) wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him,

"They have no wine." 

4 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." 

5 His mother saith unto the servants,

"Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." 

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them,

"Fill the waterpots with water."

And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, 

"Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast."

And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, 

"Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." 

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Thus, wine was (and still is) AN INTEGRAL PART of a wedding feast for children of Israel. Now, before you make another rash assumption, there's also this said by Gavri'el ("Gabriel") about Yeshua`:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshua`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And, Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-40 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

We also read the following:

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Thus, His Kingdom doesn't start until Yeshua` returns to the earth. WHEN He comes, THEN He establishes His Kingdom, which is also His Father's Kingdom since Yeshua` is His Father's REPRESENTATIVE King - His Father's MESSIAH (ANOINTED) to be King!

So, I believe that His Father's Kingdom is NOT in some fictitious "heaven," but will be UPON THIS EARTH when Yeshua` returns to reign! What that means is that the marriage supper of the Lamb will also be UPON THIS EARTH when Yeshua` returns to reign! And, this makes sense, for where else do we know that grapes grow but upon this earth?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well, I think you ASSUME too much. You ASSUME that the marriage and supper take place IN this place called "heaven," but the truth is that "heaven" simply means "the sky," and in particular, the "atmosphere" of this planet. You absolutely MUST learn to differentiate between "heaven" (Greek: ouranos) and "heavenly" or "celestial" (Greek: epouranios). They do NOT mean the same thing.

Secondly, Yeshua` said, 

Matthew 26:26-29 (KJV)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said,

"Take, eat; this is my body." 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,

"Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

This is said at the END of His offer of the Kingdom to the children of Israel. At the beginning of His offer, we read about His first recorded miracle:

John 2:1-11 (KJV)

1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted (lacked) wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him,

"They have no wine." 

4 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." 

5 His mother saith unto the servants,

"Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." 

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them,

"Fill the waterpots with water."

And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, 

"Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast."

And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, 

"Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." 

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Thus, wine was (and still is) AN INTEGRAL PART of a wedding feast for children of Israel. Now, before you make another rash assumption, there's also this said by Gavri'el ("Gabriel") about Yeshua`:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshua`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And, Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-40 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

We also read the following:

John 5:25-29 (KJV)

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Thus, His Kingdom doesn't start until Yeshua` returns to the earth. WHEN He comes, THEN He establishes His Kingdom, which is also His Father's Kingdom since Yeshua` is His Father's REPRESENTATIVE King - His Father's MESSIAH (ANOINTED) to be King!

So, I believe that His Father's Kingdom is NOT in some fictitious "heaven," but will be UPON THIS EARTH when Yeshua` returns to reign! What that means is that the marriage supper of the Lamb will also be UPON THIS EARTH when Yeshua` returns to reign! And, this makes sense, for where else do we know that grapes grow but upon this earth?

It is no wonder I disagree with you so much. Please open your mind and learn something:

Rev. 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

WHERE was this door opened? In "ouranos" .  And what did John SEE there? Did He seen clouds and birds? Let's look:

behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.  A throne! Imagine that: a throne floating in the air, surrounded by clouds! (Hope it is not raining!)

round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting  Wow! Twenty four elders seated on chairs floating on the air! 

 in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Now, get this right: this scene is in HEAVEN where God's throne is. It is the "ouranos" heaven. The truth is, "ouranos" can certainly mean the heaven where God dwells. 

Mat. 3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven ^G3772 is at hand.  This is NOT the kingdom of the air! It is the Kingdom where GOD dwells. 

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven G3772 may forgive you your trespasses.

Mark agrees with this use of oranos also. God dwells on His throne and His throne is in oranos.  Luke also agrees:

Luk 6:23  Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: G3772 for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets

I could go on and on, but it would do no good.

Thus, His Kingdom doesn't start until Yeshua` returns to the earth.  Sorry, but you are mistaken here too. Jesus' spiritual kingdom began with the 120 in the upper room when they were born again. You are right that His physical kingdom will begin when He descends to earth to the battle of Armageddon.

[Retrobyter]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:36 AM, iamlamad said:

It is no wonder I disagree with you so much. Please open your mind and learn something:

Rev. 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

WHERE was this door opened? In "ouranos" .  And what did John SEE there? Did He seen clouds and birds? Let's look:

behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.  A throne! Imagine that: a throne floating in the air, surrounded by clouds! (Hope it is not raining!)

round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting  Wow! Twenty four elders seated on chairs floating on the air! 

 in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Now, get this right: this scene is in HEAVEN where God's throne is. It is the "ouranos" heaven. The truth is, "ouranos" can certainly mean the heaven where God dwells. 

Mat. 3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven ^G3772 is at hand.  This is NOT the kingdom of the air! It is the Kingdom where GOD dwells. 

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven G3772 may forgive you your trespasses.

Mark agrees with this use of oranos also. God dwells on His throne and His throne is in oranos.  Luke also agrees:

Luk 6:23  Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: G3772 for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets

I could go on and on, but it would do no good.

Thus, His Kingdom doesn't start until Yeshua` returns to the earth.  Sorry, but you are mistaken here too. Jesus' spiritual kingdom began with the 120 in the upper room when they were born again. You are right that His physical kingdom will begin when He descends to earth to the battle of Armageddon.

Shalom, iamlamad.

I love you as a brother, um, brother, but this is why it is dangerous to think that one has what one needs to understand Revelation at such a simple level. The Greek IS simple ... for a Greek to understand, but it's not so easy when translated into English. After all, English is not as refined a language as other languages with more cases, tenses, and parts of speech.

Long ago, I opened my mind to Yeshua`, the Jewish ramifications of the Scriptures, and the simple truths as defined by the original languages. When I was a believer in the pretribulational rapture, I was seriously CLOSED-MINDED to God's truth as revealed by the Scriptures! Things I believed didn't always make sense, but I accepted what I was taught anyway. When one of my "heroes in the faith" let me down, I took it rather hard. I basically kicked out everything I had been taught as a child, and, using new things I had learned up to that point, rebuilt my belief system based SOLELY on the Scriptures. I accepted two things: God was real, and He wanted to communicate with people in a written way, the Bible. I had already accepted the Messiah Yeshua` as my "Savior" (my Justifier), and so I had those few things on which I could rely.

There were certain Scriptures that shook my complacency: Isaiah 66:24 and Luke 19:27, for instance. I learned that Yeshua` was not the totally kind and benevolent "Savior" I was led to be believe in as a kid. This Son of man turns out to be a MAN'S MAN who will take no guff from anyone! Even the "emergency U.N. meeting" will be a source of ridicule!

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH), and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

'the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me,

"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

Don't think for a moment that I do not take these things seriously! I do NOT take them lightly! For a THOUSAND YEARS He shall be subduing His enemies, one enemy at a time!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son (of God) also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (the Son, the Messiah), that God (the Father) may be all in all.

This mirrors and harmonizes with Revelation 20:1-15 and 21:1-8:

Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-8 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new."

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful."

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

And, this changes the meaning of the parables, particularly that of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,

"Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man; 
38 The field is (=) the world;
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil (the slanderer);
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (the end of the age);
and the reapers are (=) the angels (messengers). 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (the end of this age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Therefore, to understand this parable, simply substitute the seven elements which Yeshua` defined into the parable:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

'Sir, didst not thou sow children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

'The devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the messengers/angels,

"Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'"

Then, Yeshua` added the explanation at the end:

40 "As therefore the children of the wicked one are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (the end of this age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Thus, this parable is talking about the THOUSAND YEARS when Yeshua` begins His Kingdom here on this earth, in this world-system of government! It's NOT talking about this current time period at all!

His Kingdom most certainly did NOT start with 120 in the upper room! There was no "kingdom" at that time, "spiritual" or otherwise! That's just a twisting of the Scriptures to make them sound like the "Church" took the place of Israel for His Kingdom, another attempt at Replacement Theology!

And, just one more thing (for now): Have you ever considered Psalm 139: and taken the passage's thoughts to the ultimate level?

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

This passage is used to support the idea of the omnipresence of God! So, how can God have "an abode" as such? Listen to Solomon's words:

2 Chronicles 6:12-21 (KJV)

12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven (the skies), 14 And said,

"O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven (in the skies), nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 17 Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven (the skies) and the heaven of heavens (the sky of the skies = space) cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.

And, God repeated this thought to Yesha`yahuw in the following:

Isaiah 66:1 (KJV)

1 Thus saith the LORD,

"The heaven is (the skies are) my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

Therefore, it is LUDICROUS to think that "God's abode" is the "third heaven" as some place beyond the "heaven of clouds" and the "heaven of stars!" It doesn't work!