Who is the Whore of babylon

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

“I TOLD you, read 1 Thes. chapter 4 & 5. Please don't write any more until you at least read it? It is the rapture. I call it PAUL's rapture because HE WROTE IT. I think you are pulling my leg talking about Paul when He was stoned to death visiting heaven. If you would read and understand 1 Thes 4 & 5, Paul explains how the church will be caught up, and tells us WHEN in chapter 5. But you have to UNDERSTAND it.:

What are you talking about Paul being stoned to death when he visited heaven you are rambling I never said anything like that. You keep telling me to go read something, that’s your job, to read your scripture and explain what it means to you it supposed to be your argument. Why is it so hard for you to explain Paul’s words. Instead you tell me to read chapter 5. You start out as if you are going to explain paul’s words then you stop and send me to do your job. So I’m supposed to read it and come back and explain it for you?

You can cut and paste scripture but when it comes to explaining yourself you do a very poor job of that.

 

You have already forgotten what you wrote. I will remind you:

Here you start out saying that after the rapture, still not showing in scripture where it talks about a rapture, are we just supposed to just assume it's there because you say that’s what’s happening. Is that your proof of a rapture, that because some people think Paul was raptured, is that your evidence for rapture. Even Paul didn’t know what was going on there, he said he didn’t know if he was in spirit or flesh. If Paul was there in the spirit then that’s not rapture, the rapture is physical,

You ARE talking about when Paul went up to heaven, and did not know if he was in the flesh or not. Don't try to deny it. How did you EVER get on that topic when we were talking about the rapture OF THE CHURCH? Sorry, but it was YOU who was rambling. 

Did you WANT me to explain Paul's words? I wonder if you have even READ Paul's words. I have already read and studied the rapture. It seems you have not.  Look, if you ask a simple question instead of rambling, I will answer it to the best of my ability. I don't know that you have asked anything.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

“OF COURSE the alive in Christ people will be changed AFTER the resurrection of the dead in Christ: Paul GIVES US this order. It is truly a resurrection / rapture. But those alive and in Christ are CHANGED - so no sinful body will be taken to heaven. I hope you have read 1 Cor. 15 where Paul talks about the change. But make no mistake, it will come BEFORE the 70th week begins.”

 No, they are no changed after the resurrection, but all are resurrected at the same time. You say that no sinful body will be taken to heaven, and that’s right, that’s why Paul could not have been physically raptured to heaven. Even Though Paul was a great worker for the kingdom he still was a sinner living in a body of sin not fit for heaven. Unless you can tell me when that 70th week starts  and when it finishes you are talking loud but saying nothing.

You are STILL stuck on Paul taken to heaven. We are not talking about that subject. We are talking about the rapture of the CHURCH. How on earth did you switch subjects? Can you stay on the rapture of the church? My friend, the rapture is FUTURE. What happened to Paul was long long ago. 

I CAN tell you when the 70th week starts - but you have never asked me. Since I am a nice guy, I will tell you anyway: the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. You probably will disagree, but this is truth.

You are still in error: the dead in Christ get resurrected, but those who are alive in Christ get changed.

Edited January 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

 As for as Daniel’s 70 weeks, there is no consensus on it, that’s why the Gap is there, because the bible interpreters knew that 70th week had come and what they expected did not materialize that stopped it at the 69th week and at that point you force your false doctrine of a pre tribulation rapture there. 

You are as far off from truth here as east is from the west.

There Is a gap in Daniel 9 between the 69th week and the 70th week. Daniel himself put it there. What does this mean? This is what Daniel wrote  - what will happen IN that gap:

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

So far this gap has been close to 2000 years. What has taken place in those 2000 years? THE CHURCH. Not the rapture, the CHURCH. The rapture will END the church age.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

 And still you can’t show me anything about a rapture in that 70 weeks because its not there, then tell me to go read something that you recommend. I ask you to do a simple thing and that’s to show me the scripture evidence where the rapture takes place in that 70 weeks and all you do is go around in this circle about this 70 weeks that has long ago passed. Now the word of God is not in error when it comes to the 70 weeks, but man’s interpretation of it is what may have miscalculated it.

It is obvious to readers that you should read something; you are all over the place in doctrine. I have never said the rapture would be IN "that 70 weeks" or in the 70th week - if that is what you meant. 

Go back and read Daniel 9 again: the 69 weeks ended when Jesus was born. He was cut off AFTER the 69 weeks. But the 70th week is still future. Believe it, for it is truth. 

Get this straight! The "70 weeks" has NOT passed: only 69 of the 70 weeks has passed. If you don't believe this, then show us the dates of when each trumpet judgment took place somewhere in our history. 

Have you read 1 Thes. 5? Please, allow me to give a synopsis:

Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming - when people are thinking peace and safety. What is that suddenly? SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves, meet with their spirits and be raised up into the air.

The raising of the dead in Christ will CAUSE a worldwide earthquake.  (Mat. 27 "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened... When Jesus raised the elders of the Old Testament [when He rose] that raising caused an earthquake.) 

This earthquake will be world wide. It will be Paul's "sudden destruction." 

Now, a moment after the dead in Christ rise, Paul gives us a paradigm: two groups of people get TWO DIFFERENT results.

Those living in the light of the Gospel will be raptured and escape the sudden destruction earthquake.

Those living in sin are left behind and cannot escape the sudden destruction earthquake.

Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of GOD'S WRATH. He tells us God is not going to set any appointments for us WITH His wrath. No, HIS plan is that we are ready and get caught up in the rapture.

Paul also tells us that this sudden destruction earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Now, WHERE in Revelation does the wrath of God start? At the 6th seal. Therefore Paul's rapture MUST come just before the 5th seal. how amazing then that at the 6th seal, THE DAY starts and His wrath begins.

It is no mistake then that in Rev. 7, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN. (The 70th week starts in chapter ?

Will you argue about these things now - or will you believe?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

 You said it yourself that God’s time is different that our time, is it not possible that man has confused his timing with God’s timing and confused himself. But one thing is sure, what they expected to happen in that 70 weeks period did not happen. The 70 week period does nothing to help in your argument of a pre tribulation rapture, it only adds to the confusion of that 70 weeks and why they had to stop it at 69 weeks.  

What on earth do you mean by "they had to stop it?" It is what Daniel wrote. Either people believe it or they don't. Do YOU believe what Daniel wrote? Read it again:  "²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

This tells us the 69 weeks are OVER - finished. That is what "AFTER" means. It is clear from what Daniel wrote that the 70th week DOES NOT FOLLOW the 69, because Daniel wrote of things that will happen BETWEEN. Untold millions of believers around the world believe the 70th week is still future. Revelation makes that quite clear.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

 “You amaze me! You are rambling, making very little sense at it. i am guessing you have not read 1 Thes 4, or read it but don't believe it. You COMPLETELY misunderstood when I said "paul's rapture."  I was NOT talking about his trip to heaven. How could you have missed this? Your first two paragraphs then are wasted - talking nonsense.”

 Do you see what I’m talking about? You first talk about Paul being rapture to heaven but when you realize that that’s not going to work you drop this:

 “i am guessing you have not read 1 Thes 4, or read it but don't believe it. You COMPLETELY misunderstood when I said "paul's” 

One thing is certain, I am not going to do your homework for you! If you ask a question, I will try to answer it. I am still amazed that you jumped on Paul's trip to heaven (probably happened when he was stoned) when we were talking about the rapture of the church. How could you have made such a blunder? I called it "Paul's rapture" because HE WROTE IT. Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received revelation about the rapture. 

You first talk about Paul being rapture to heaven

No, I NEVER talked about Paul being raptured to heaven. It seems you know so little about the real rapture of the church you ASSUMED I was talking about Paul being caught up to heaven. Do you just not know that the rapture of the church is found in 1 thes. 4?  Why are you on a forum? Are you trying to learn - or trying teach others? Please tell me it is to learn!

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Royff said:

 I’ve read it many times and I don’t believe it as you presents it, so no matter how many times I read it I’m still of the same opinion  because you have done nothing to help explain it but keep repeating yourself and again running from answering how the word of God say many christians will be killed even after the pale horse rides, but you say no the bible is in error. I think instead of going around in circles about this and the 70 weeks that you failed at a reasonable explanation. Aren’t you tired of the circle? Then let move on because at this point you are making less and less sense. So back to you dispute with Jesus’ word He spoke from heaven, that Christians will die after the pale horse ride that you disputes. Let's talk about that. I’m waiting for you explanation.

 This is what I said:

 The church is here in the tribulation but only the lost in the day of the Lord when the earth is destroyed. This is what you come back with: 

“i am guessing you have not read 1 Thes 4, or read it but don't believe it. You COMPLETELY misunderstood when I said "paul's”

You amaze me. I have never said "no the bible is in error" Your imagination is running wild. I am not the one going in circles. You are the one who began to talk about Paul being caught up, when the subject was the rapture. Do you understand the pale horse and rider are a PART of the three: the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider: these three ride together! They represent Satan's attempts to STOP the gospel - to keep it in the one fourth of the earth - that fourth centered on Jerusalem. The pale rider probably represents things like the black plague that hit Europe twice, both times killing around a third of the people. Do you understand that these riders were sent out right after Jesus told the church to go and take the gospel to the nations? 

This one fourth of the earth would cover Europe and Africa with the Middle East between. WHERE did two world wars start? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? Africa. These riders have been busy over the church age.

So back to you dispute with Jesus’ word He spoke from heaven, that Christians will die after the pale horse ride

Please, show us the scripture and tell us what YOU think it means. 

Perhaps you imagine this pale horse and rider are to ride out in the future?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Royff said:

This is what I said:

 The church is here in the tribulation but only the lost in the day of the Lord when the earth is destroyed. This is what you come back with:

 “This makes NO SENSE. AGain, do you mean "the 70th week?" No, the church is NOT here for the 70th week, for the entire week is WRATH. Do you want to set your OWN appointment with His wrath? God is certainly not going to set one for you. If you are here for His wrath, that will be YOUR doing, not God's. He has an escape plan for you.”

 I’m saying nothing about 70 weeks here, but the day of the Lord, get of that merry go round and do a study on the day of the Lord. In the tribulation period there is a lot of war taking place because of the actions of the antichrist in betraying the Jews and declaring himself to be God.b during this period of time people will still be marrying planting and growing food and still doing the normal things. Even Jesus says when he returns it shall be as in the days of Noah people during the normal things they normally do, so even though world war three is raging, people still need to eat, the still must plant food just as they did in WW II. This is in the last days of the tribulation period so even though the world is in choas many still go about their normal work day, that’s according to the Lord. That’s the tribulation period.  

The church is here in the tribulation

You wrote it, I didn't! AGain, WHAT DO YOU MEAN by "the tribulation?" Do you mean the 70th week of Daniel - the last 7 years to finish out Daniel's 70 weeks? Do you mean this 7 year period of time? The only merry go round is your posts! You can't seem to make much sense or stay on a topic.  You are sadly mistaken. The rapture of the church will come BEFORE any part of "the tribulation" IF you mean the 7 year period that ends the Jewish age.

In the tribulation period

Now you are being a little clearer. Good. So you ARE meaning the 70th week or the time of Jacob's trouble. Some people call this "the tribulation." My friend, I am well versed on the day of the Lord. But it seems you are not - you only THINK you are. 

What IS in "the tribulation" or the 70th week? John shows us that 6 trumpet judgments will come in the first half, and the 7 vials in the second half. (The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.) Please show us verses of war. I want to see them. Daniel does tell us that the "little horn" will take out three of 10 kings - so that certainly hints of war - but in Daniel there is no hint of WHEN this will happen. 

Certainly before the rapture people will be living life as normal. But when the Day of the Lord begins, those that understand it will be scared out of their wits as John wrote at the 6th seal. 

Get this straight: there is NO RAPTURE IN the Day of the Lord. The rapture will TRIGGER the day of the Lord. Notice that Paul mentions the day of the Lord just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse in 1 Thes. 4:17. The DAY is tied to the rapture and they cannot be separated: the rapture will TRIGGER THE DAY.  The day of the Lord is a day of destruction where God will systematically begin to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. It is a DARK day. 

Get the TIMING John gives us: THE DAY begins at the 6th seal. THE WEEK (the trib) begins at the 7th seal. The "tribulation" is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. If you can't believe this, you are not reading the scriptures correctly.

When Jesus mentioned the days of Noah, his purpose was to point out the SUDDENNESS of their destruction: they woke up one morning thinking that day would be like every other day - but there WAS NO other day for them. That is why Paul called the destruction SUDDEN destruction: it will come suddenly and without warning.

The "tribulation period" then will begin with the first six trumpet judgments. It is not going to be a cake walk or a picnic. Just one trumpet judgment kills one third of earth's population. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Royff said:

After the tribulation period, then comes “the day of the Lord” When the mountains flatten out and move out of their place. Remember, before this in the tribulation period people still did normal things, but once the Lord shows up all that changes. Now all the planets are on fire, now everyone running to hide from he that sitteth on the throne. Now nothing is normal any more because the day of the Lord has arrived. The day of the Lord is after the tribulation period. The tribulation period is and the day of the Lord are two different events. The destruction of the tribulation period is man’s doing but the destruction of the dad of the Lord is all God’s doings, who can stand; no one. It makes perfect sense when you read scripture and understand what you are reading and not try to twist what you are reading into what you want it to mean. You mean to tell me that you did not know that the tribulation period and the Day of the Lord are two different events?  It's not me who are rambling but its you because you do such a poor job of explaining yourself.

 This is what I said:

 The earth is not destroyed in the tribulation but it is destroyed in the day of the Lord, two different events. 

I have a novel idea: why not just believe John? Don't take my word for it: go back and look: THE DAY begins at the 6th seal. That is in chapter 6. "The tribulation" will not begin until the 7th seal. How much time between? I suspect there will be 10 days - the 10 days of AWE. 

After the tribulation period, then comes “the day of the Lord”

You are using human reasoning or parroting what you have heard others say - but the sad part is, it is NOT scripture. You are miles from the truth of scripture. THE DAY starts first! Why can't you believe John? You imagine Jesus must come to bring THE DAY. That is simply NOT SCRIPTURE. You cannot prove it by scripture. The truth is, THE DAY starts at the 6th seal. And the rapture comes a moment before the 6th seal. 

In other words, seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - these are CHURCH AGE. John has not yet arrived a "the end." The rapture of the church, which will come between the 5th and 6th seal, will END the church age, and then judgment will start with THE DAY. 

When the mountains flatten out and move out of their place.

My friend, the mountains MOVE at the 6th seal that begins THE DAY. The mountains disappear at the 7th vial that ends the week. So you are mistaken yet again.

in the tribulation period people still did normal things, but once the Lord shows up all that changes.

You don't realize it, so I will tell you: this is MYTH. Jesus does not "show up" until chapter 19. The "trib" ends at the 7th vial in chapter 16. The events of chapters 17 & 18 will certainly take place AFTER the week has ended and BEFORE Jesus comes to the battle of Armageddon. 

It makes perfect sense when you read scripture and understand what you are reading and not try to twist what you are reading into what you want it to mean.

I wished you followed your own advice! Sadly much of what you write is MYTH.

You mean to tell me that you did not know that the tribulation period and the Day of the Lord are two different events?

Your imagination again! You are writing MYTH. THE DAY OF THE LORD begins first, then the WEEK. The week ends but THE DAY continues on. It is NOT one 24 hour period! The millennial reign may well be IN the Day of the Lord.  I guess you probably imagine you can separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath. That too is MYTH, because they come concurrently - at the same time. 

The earth is not destroyed in the tribulation but it is destroyed in the day of the Lord, two different events. 

MYTH, MYTH, MYTH. I have a suggestion: throw all your theories into the trash and start over. This time BELIEVE what John has written!

Edited January 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Royff said:

 “You are badly confused. Go and look: don't take my word for it: THE DAY begins in chapter 6 at the 6th seal. The 70th week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16. Therefore, the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. Have you read the Old Testament verses on THE DAY? you should. It would help you recognize THE DAY in Revelation. It is a day of DESTRUCTION.”

 The announcement of the day of the Lord is in the 7th trumpet blast, that raps up the tribulation period and the destruction of the earth follows. Man has partly destroyed the earth in the tribulation period but total destruction is in the day of the Lord.  if as you say they are the same event, how can people be still getting married and doing normal things like planting food, you said it yourself, it's the day of destruction.

 how could Christians die in the earth even after the pale horse rides out just after the souls under the altar complaints.

The announcement of the day of the Lord is in the 7th trumpet blast,  MYTH. So us a verse with these words. If you want the truth, go back and read about THE DAY at the 6th seal. There you will find it.  I think you don't really know what you THINK you know. But you DO have a good imagination.

the 7th trumpet blast, that raps up the tribulation period

Wow. You simply amaze me. You THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. If you are here to teach, you will teach MYTH, not truth. Do you also imagine Christ returns at the 7th trumpet? How then about His return in chapter 19? Are you adding ANOTHER return of Christ? 

Get this straight: at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world are transferred from Satan to Jesus Christ, but Jesus does NOT RETURN THEN, and the Day of the Lord does not begin then: it began at the 6th seal.  Next, learn that the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT. It is only half way through "the tribulation" or 70th week. And the days of GREAT tribulation are about to begin at the 7th trumpet.

the destruction of the earth follows

MORE MYTH. Is there no end? Did you just not notice that destroying all the green grass and one third of the trees is the START of the destruction of the earth? The first trumpet judgments BEGIN the process of destroying the earth. The 6th trumpet judgment begins the destruction of the SINNERS on the earth. You are lost on the pale horse and rider.