Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

25 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, "Old Coot."

Ah! But, that ASSUMES that "the time of Jacob's trouble" comes AFTER the "harpazo!" What if (and it is) that the "harpazo" comes AFTER "the time of Jacob's trouble?"

And, it would be hard for the Groom to marry the Bride BEFORE she has been RESURRECTED!

Indeed it does!

That goes back to my talking about the woman and child of Revelation 12 and the birth pains talked about there and the birth pains as shown relating to the end times as shown in the Prophets.  Jeremiah lays the foundation solidly, equating the birth pains / labor pains to the time of jacob's Trouble or tribulation period.  Isaiah talks about the same thing in Isaiah 66.

And the groom doesn't marry the bride before she is resurrected.

At the time the betrothal of the groom and the bride, the covenant is sealed when both drink from the cup of wine.  Yeshua did this at the last supper before His execution.  At that time, the groom pays the dowry or bride price for his bride.. Yeshua did that at his death.   

Then the groom returns to his father's house to prepare the marriage chamber or Chupah.  He is not allowed to return to get his bride until his father approves of the Chupah.  When friends and neighbors ask the groom when the marriage will be, he is to answer "only my father knows".

When he comes for his bride, he calls to her from outside her house and she leaves the house to join him and they both return to the Chupah to consummate the marriage. They remain there for 7 days.   Then they emerge as husband and wife, as one, and the marriage feast begins.  

The same with the Messiah and the Church.  He told us quite clear that only the Father knows the day and the hour when He would gather His bride.  When the groom (Messiah) comes for his bride, (Church) we are gathered to Him as the removal of the righteous.  Both the righteous dead and living per Paul and Isaiah.  Then the marriage is consummated in the Chupah or wedding chamber, which for us in in heaven.   So you are right it would be hard for the groom to marry the bride before the resurrection.

Edited February 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, again, you've misintepreted 1 Thessalonians 4 in the same way you misinterpreted John 14! You've made an assumption and ADDED words in 1 Thessalonians 4 that aren't there!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's a common assumption, but again, this passage NEVER SAYS WHERE WE WILL BE GOING AND BE "WITH THE LORD!" It's the pretribber's ASSUMPTION that we "go to Heaven" with Him! By throwing these words into the 17th verse, even if only implied in a person's mind, you've GUIDED the verse your way! Because the pretrib theology says this verse means "we go to Heaven with the Messiah Yeshua` who goes back to Heaven," you've technically added these words that AREN'T THERE in reality!

Going back to John 14, "where AM Jesus?" (Great English. Oh, well.) Technically, He was RIGHT THERE IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL, with His disciples, when He said these words! And, when we stick to the wording of John 14:3, He has just returned to Earth.

3 And if I go (YOU SAY, "to heaven") and prepare a place for you, I will come again (YOU SAY, "to earth," even if only "in the air"), and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So, where does the "AM" belong? Not "heaven," but "EARTH!" And, why would you go to the book of Revelation in an attempt to prove your point in John?!

First, because your theology says that Revelation 19 and John 14:3 (the "I will come again" part) are synonymous, you have once again ASSUMED a fact that isn't there!

Second, because your interpretation (which stems from your theology) equates these two, and your interpretation of John 14:3 is in question, it is circular reasoning to use Revelation 19 in an attempt to prove your point!

Third, the tenses of the verbs in John 14:3 are ...

where I AM, = present indicative active in the first-person singular
there ye may BE also = present subjunctive active in the second-person plural.

Thus, when translated into English, the subjunctive (conjunctive) mood is the recipient verb of the subordinate "that" clause. "That ye also may be where I am." The more logical location of "where I am," then, would be where He will be when He "will come again."

The "where I am" is related to TIMING! You are ignoring the timing. 

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

You did not ask the question of where He would be during the time of the 70th week.  Where will He (MYSELF) BE? You expect others to think He has spent 2000 years building homes and then never takes us to those homes. Revelation absolutely proves He remains in heaven until after the entire week. He will not return to the battle (as shown in Rev. 19) until after the days of great tribulation are over. And if we believe John, after the events of chapters 17 & 18, and then after the marriage and supper. So WHERE IS HE ("where I am)") all during Revelation chapters 8 through 16 (the 70th week)? He is IN HEAVEN. It is the place He went to build homes for us. Then John 14 makes a lot of sense: He went to build homes, and He will come and get us and take us to the Homes He has prepared. In cast you missed it, it is following the exact pattern of a Jewish wedding.

All end times scriptures must fit together  - like a hand in a glove.  All verses must be understood in light of all others. It is an absolute fact that Jesus went to build homes for us. If you want to miss seeing the home he build for you - that is on you. I am going to see my home - along will millions of other pretribbers. 

You completely ignore the timing Paul gives for HIS rapture: HIS timing is a moment before God's wrath begins: that would be a moment before the 6th seal. Paul's "sudden destruction" is the great earthquake at the 6th seal. It will be a worldwide earthquake because it will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - and the dead in Christ are found the world around.  Paul is very clear: the catching up of the church will come BEFORE any of the 70th week. That is why John 14 hints VERY strongly that He takes us back to heaven to wait out His wrath on earth.  If you miss these scriptures, your entire end time scenario will be off - WAY off. 

Then you completely ignore that John SAW the raptured church in heaven, right after the 6th seal rapture: the great crowd, too large to number. Did you ever stop to imagine just HOW LARGE the caught up church will be? There will be perhaps 50 generations of believers - and the last few generations will number in the millions. it will indeed be a crowd too large to number. 

Isaiah told the story way back then:

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
19  Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust! For you will be covered with the morning dew, and the earth will bring out the departed spirits. 

20  Go, my people, enter your rooms and close your doors behind you. Hide for a little while until the wrath has passed. 

21For look, the LORD is coming from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will reveal the blood shed on it and will no longer conceal her slain. 

WHEN shall "dead men live?" One time for sure will be at the rapture.  The dead bodies of those who are IN CHRIST shall rise.  What "rooms" is Isaiah talking about? Don't forget Paul: God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. He is going to take us to heaven AWAY from His wrath.

WHAT YOU MISS: when one considers ALL the end times scriptures, a pretrib rapture is the ONLY theory that fits. 

The truth is, the Bride of Christ is going to heaven pretrib. You can be on that flight if you choose. But so far you have chosen to remain behind. I really hope that works out for you!

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, "Old Coot."

Ah! But, that ASSUMES that "the time of Jacob's trouble" comes AFTER the "harpazo!" What if (and it is) that the "harpazo" comes AFTER "the time of Jacob's trouble?"

And, it would be hard for the Groom to marry the Bride BEFORE she has been RESURRECTED!

If you imagine Paul's gathering is the gathering found in the Olivet discourse,  it is no wonder you think as you do. You have gone astray by not believing Paul. HE is the one who received the revelation of the rapture. No one else did. If you want to find the timing of the rapture, you must read Paul! 

Since you have missed it entirely, please, allow me to summarize: 

A SUDDENLY is coming! With no warning: SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. That event will cause a world wide earthquake. (Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened") It will be Paul's sudden destruction. And this sudden event will be when people are thinking and saying "peace and safety."

Then, a moment later, two groups of people get two different results:

Those living in the light of the gospel (In Christ) get raptured, and so MISS the wrath of God in the sudden destruction earthquake. 

Those living outside the gospel are left behind, and therefore cannot escape the sudden destruction of this earthquake.

Paul then tells us that God will not set any appointment for us with His wrath: we are to be caught up. Paul hints very strongly that this sudden destruction wrath will be the start of the Day of the Lord. IN REVELATION Paul's rapture can ONLY fit in one place: a moment before the 6th seal. In other words, PRETRIB.

Who are all those people already in heaven in Rev. 19 - there in heaven ready for the marriage and supper? They are one: the raptured church. Two: the raptured Old Testament saints. Three: the 144,000. Four: those beheaded during the trib. All will be there at the marriage. 

Well, the question is, which group will those who refuse to believe in a pretrib rapture be in? I submit they will be in the group of the beheaded.  It is not God's plan for them: but if one resists God's plan, then they don't get His best. All those that will be beheaded COULD have been in the first flight out: but they refused.

[OldCoot]

Actually, I think Paul hit the nail on the head and is most aptly reflected in the 1599 Geneva Bible in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

 

operative word there is “departing” which virtually all translations prior to the KJV used and is a better translation than the now common “falling away”.   Departing in V3 refers back to our assembling (gathering) to Him.  Even the Latin Vulgate uses dicessio which is physical departure and not a spiritual falling away. And the context of the passage is our assembling or gathering to Him not a departing from Him.

Edited February 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

25 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I am having trouble keeping track of all the responses being made.   Would you kindly repost or redirect me to them?  Thanks.

The PuP 

Just back up a page

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Well, the question is, which group will those who refuse to believe in a pretrib rapture be in? I submit they will be in the group of the beheaded.  It is not God's plan for them: but if one resists God's plan, then they don't get His best. All those that will be beheaded COULD have been in the first flight out: but they refused.

I cannot concur.  All in the Body of Messiah, the redeemed, are there because of His merits, not because of an eschatological position.  All in the Body will get the same deal.  If indeed the pre-trib is true, and I believe it is, then all of the redeemed get the same ride.

Edited February 14, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Is this it? 

The PuP 

Yep.  I have since built upon it in at least one following post.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I cannot concur.  All in the Body of Messiah, the redeemed, are there because of His merits, not because of an eschatological position.  All in the Body will get the same deal.  If indeed the pre-trib is true, and I believe it is, then all of the redeemed get the same ride.

Hebrews 9 last verse makes me wonder: He is coming for those who are EXPECTING him! Am I reading that wrong?

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

With Rev 12, as you have noted,  we have a direct quote from Isa 66.  Paul,  probably also has Isa 66 in mind when he writes 2 Thess: 

Verse list:    
Isa 66:5-21 KJV    Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

2Th 1:7-10 KJV    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Isa 66:15-16 KJV    For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

You start out well when you recognize that the woman (Isa 66 & Rev 12) is Zion.   But when you or any of the myriad of scholars, place an interpretation above what the scriptures themselves declare, you err.  Isaiah, thru the spirit,  shows us that Zion,  is surely Jerusalem when he says that SHE brought forth HER children.   Isa 66 goes on to refer to her 8 more times in the next several verses.    There is no angelic interpretation for this allegory.   "Her" is unquestionably referring to Jerusalem throughout. 

"*[[Isa 66:10]] KJV* Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with HER, all ye that love HER: rejoice for joy with HER, all ye that mourn for HER:"

The lack of an internal interpretation of "she" versus "her", can only mean that they are referring to the same thing... Jerusalem.   To say that it refers to (the people of) Israel brought forth her children is just an unnecessary redundancy.  It would also be ridiculous for John to say that he saw (the people of Israel) in heaven,  along with the dragon,  in heaven.   What makes more sense is to listen to the scripture when it says that the woman is Jerusalem,  the New Jerusalem,  the holy city of God,  which is in fact later seen IN HEAVEN,  coming down.   This Jerusalem has 12 stars/ angels at the 12 gates made of pearl: 

*[[Rev 21:12]] KJV* And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

From reading other posts that you have made,  i get the impression that the woman flees into the wilderness at some point other than the middle of the 70th week.   The use of time, times,  & half a time found there and Daniel 12, where we also see Michael the archangel standing up,  at the time of the great tribulation,  can mean that we are talking about the same time... in the middle of the week.   Have I assessed your views correctly? 

Blessings

The PuP 

If you were only to look at one passage, you could make that work.  But Jeremiah 30 also refers to the labor pains and equates them solidly to the time of Jacob's Trouble.  

Back to Isaiah, it clearly states....

Isaiah 66:7  “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.

That squares precisely with Revelation 12.  Zion (Jerusalem) never delivered a male child.  Or will it?  Hmmmm.

Well, the Church was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on Shavuot.  It was not born.  Believers are born again, but the entity of the Church has been growing until it is delivered.  It will be delivered incorruptible yet future.  The Church is the Body of Messiah and is made up of many people. So the application is not as cut and dry as you seem to assert.   Zion does indeed bring forth a male child.... the body of Yeshua, the Church.   And in doing so, Zion will be delivering a Nation (See 1 Peter 2:9) which the Church is a Holy Nation, and it is comprised of many people... her children.   

Even if we go with the idea that this passage does apply to something other than Revelation 12, many fail to see in prophecy is multiple application.  For instance, the Abomination of Desolation the Yeshua referred to is a good example.  He clearly states it is from Daniel.  Antiochus obviously is considered an example of this Abomination of the Temple.  It occurred after Daniel wrote about it, yet it was before Yeshua and He said it will occur future.   Keep in mind, prophecy is not only prediction.... it is pattern.  

So while the rest of the passage of Isaiah 66 indeed does say Zion delivered her children, Zion did not deliver a male child, at least yet.  Going with your assertion, it looks like there are two prophecies going on in the same passage that are not related.  Don't think that can happen?  Well it did when Yeshua first stood in the synagogue and read Isaiah 61.  He read Verse 1 and then Verse 2 right up to "proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" and then stopped and closed the scroll.  Why didn't He read further?  Because the rest of Verse 2 talks about the vengeance of God upon the world which was not part of Yeshua's first coming.    So there are two prophecies, both related to Messiah but two different comings, contained the very same verse.  That is even tighter than Isaiah 66 where there are possibly two prophecies, in two separate verses.  

I, however, see it still as talking of Messiah, the male Child of Revelation 12, which the Church makes up His body.  Again, Yeshua was never born and immediately caught up to God and His throne as stated in Revelation 12.  But when the body of Messiah is delivered (birthed), that is exactly what will happen. 

2 Corinthians 1:9-10  Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, 10 who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

I also will bring King David into this....

Psalms 27:5-6 For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.
6 And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me;
Therefore I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle;
I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the Lord.

Again Jeremiah states what that period "time of trouble" is.....

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

 

And then we can go back to Isaiah 26 in light of Psalms 27....

Isaiah 26:17  As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

What are those chambers that they are entering?.....

John 14:1-4  “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions (chambers); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

And Isaiah is referring in that passage to a common thread in Hebrew eschatology that speaks of Yom Teruah.... the next feast on the list for Yeshua to fulfill.....

Isaiah 26:2 Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

There is that nation reference again.  I hear Peter emphasizing that the Church is a Holy Nation.  Same theme throughout Isaiah 26.... "In That Day" which is a reference to the end time.  Just like Jeremiah used "that day" talking about the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot