Alive Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) @enoob57You have essentially said that there is no place for subjective experience and yet you have just allowed for it--as long as it agrees with your own understanding of scripture. Your personal notion of what you have called transition is your own and clearly based on a set of assumptions and not the scriptures you strive to adhere to. The only barrier to a rightly dividing of the word for you in this area, is your notion of transitions. I suggest that we agree to disagree. Edited February 24, 2020 by Alive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Alive said: Be careful brother. The Lord has a great deal more for you than you can presently imagine. I wanted to treat this separately as one common thread of the charismatic movement is suggesting that there is more than just the Word of God and it is found in the subjective nature of experience: We know God's plans for the eternal state is the removal of all 1st creative elements of existence- Rev 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. KJV Therefore the things not being kept by God we are not to attach our hearts to for we will enter in to this newness with Him... So the eternity before Lucifer's fall -and- the eternity after satan is put away and all that followed him... that which remains in God will be the keeping of God …. This fulfills the faith generated by The Word of God Heb 11:1 11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. KJV thus to proclaim there is anything greater in measure of experience than this The Word of God I beg to differ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2020 53 minutes ago, enoob57 said: When one using ecstatic utterance and have no idea what they are saying yet they say I feel, draws me nearer, lifts me up etc. … they are using emotions apart from the mind to bolster their faith. As I understand there is only one way one is to bolster their faith Rom 10:17 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. KJV So in essence they are placing their faith in themselves apart from the mind and Scripture. The Lord Jesus was very clear that we were to have our foundation upon His creative Word and written Word... 1 Cor 3:10-11 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Enoob, What is faith? Does not faith involve trust? Is not Trust based on an emotion, a Passion for another? Is Not walking in the Spirit yielding control of our will to His will, and being Led by the Spirit? Is there not a Loss of control here and a feeling of peace that comes with this? I argue that tongues is one such experience like this, but unlike most charismatics it is not the Only One when a person is filled with the Spirit. Some Prophesy for example.... Do You think Prophets who carry a burden for a certain group of people, many times with tears and great heartache are using emotions to bolster their faith? Or are the emotions a result of their faith? So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. Many different denominations have different ways of explaining this, and because this act is so irrational the human mind cannot fully explain these events many have come to understand it in different ways and reach this point by different means. For example I as a Baptist was taught the concept of Belief moving from your head to your heart. Some speak of total surrender. Some call this Putting to death the flesh. And some call this being "raptured", or becoming a New creation. In First Corinthians 3, which you quoted above Paul speaks and says that He Planted the seeds in Corinth and Apollus watered those plants, this is the same thing. The seed is Christ Jesus, Water representing the Holy Ghost, and God is the one that grants the growth. The seed must die before growth can occur. Such is the walk of faith. Tongues is one such event that can occur among many that can happen to person after they become saved and the water brings growth in them. I believe the Pentecostal movement was a real move of God that has gotten corrupted over time, Just like the reformation of Luther was a real move of God that got corrupted over time, and fundamentalism was a real movement of God that got corrupted over time. Each of those movement had people being liberated from overbearing religious extremes, only to be bound into new ones that were false. Think Back to what the Victorian era was known for, religious extremes hyper rationalism and rigid modernism. The Pentecostal movement was a liberation from these extremes. Where are we now in the church? what religious extremes are we facing today? When You see this you will see where the Holy Ghost is moving. Look at what is dealt with on this site as a case and point of this. These are the corruptions of the Pentecostal movement, things such as Hebrew roots, Dominionism, Word faith and prosperity preaching, All are rooted in the Post modernist mindset that came to fruition in the 60's, but was ultimately born in the Pentecostal movement as a liberating force, which has become a force of bondage now and opposition to the truth. The way I see it, as a sociologist is that each church age progresses from a movement of liberation of the Spirit working in them, to that movement becoming institutionalized, and becoming bigger than the individuals, and thereby becoming corrupted, till once again a small minority receive the Move of the Holy Ghost and the will to speak up and post their 95 theses on the door of that new cathedral, and a new movement is born. Do not confuse this with the Hegellian dialectic, in which a synthesis is formed, that is more binding than the rest, But this is a move of the Holy Ghost, God inserting himself into the social dialectic of the church, and transforming it till we all reach the fulness. The final outpouring of the Spirit will be the gift of discernment. The ability to see who serves God and who does not (Mal. 3:18). God Bless. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, Alive said: Your personal notion of what you have called transition is your own and clearly based on a set of assumptions and not the scriptures you strive to adhere to No it is the canonization history of The New Testament... Remembering God clearly taught you do not get grapes from anything other than grape vines so also this 2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. KJV Thus that which is able to generate a thing to perfection must also then be perfect 1 Cor 13:10 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV This is the transitional support from Scripture I speak of... 15 minutes ago, Alive said: The only barrier to a rightly dividing of the word for you in this area, is your notion of transitions. I attend to the teaching of dispensational understandings... as it is God and how He has dealt with all people through all times and epochs within the history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said: You confuse the Word of God with the word of God. To experience Jesus is more than just knowing what the Bible says of Him. As for the "sola scriptura", the subjective experience of Jesus Christ does not set aside scripture as our rule of faith. But deciding that some parts of that sacred word are still profitable, while others are not goes against the principle of "sola scriptura." Again you have not addressed any of my points but argue your beliefs... there is no need to quote me if you are not going to address what I have written Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 minute ago, charisenexcelsis said: The subject of I Corinthians is love. When perfect love comes, then the gifts are superfluous. Neither history, nor the doctrine of the canon support the dispensational view that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are no longer profitable. Glossalia has never gone away. It was common for centuries in the church. At the recognition of the canon, there was no announcement condemning the continued manifestation of tongues. This dispensational view is a modern creation. Listen no where have I argued the cessation of anything... I point out the what the perfection might be according to Scripture and the overall cessation of all the 1st creation into the eternal state... your stuck into reading into what I write and think that you may be even unwilling to address this so what now …. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, dhchristian said: Enoob, What is faith? Does not faith involve trust? Is not Trust based on an emotion, a Passion for another? Is Not walking in the Spirit yielding control of our will to His will, and being Led by the Spirit? Is there not a Loss of control here and a feeling of peace that comes with this? I argue that tongues is one such experience like this, but unlike most charismatics it is not the Only One when a person is filled with the Spirit. Some Prophesy for example.... Do You think Prophets who carry a burden for a certain group of people, many times with tears and great heartache are using emotions to bolster their faith? Or are the emotions a result of their faith? So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. Many different denominations have different ways of explaining this, and because this act is so irrational the human mind cannot fully explain these events many have come to understand it in different ways and reach this point by different means. For example I as a Baptist was taught the concept of Belief moving from your head to your heart. Some speak of total surrender. Some call this Putting to death the flesh. And some call this being "raptured", or becoming a New creation. In First Corinthians 3, which you quoted above Paul speaks and says that He Planted the seeds in Corinth and Apollus watered those plants, this is the same thing. The seed is Christ Jesus, Water representing the Holy Ghost, and God is the one that grants the growth. The seed must die before growth can occur. Such is the walk of faith. Tongues is one such event that can occur among many that can happen to person after they become saved and the water brings growth in them. I believe the Pentecostal movement was a real move of God that has gotten corrupted over time, Just like the reformation of Luther was a real move of God that got corrupted over time, and fundamentalism was a real movement of God that got corrupted over time. Each of those movement had people being liberated from overbearing religious extremes, only to be bound into new ones that were false. Think Back to what the Victorian era was known for, religious extremes hyper rationalism and rigid modernism. The Pentecostal movement was a liberation from these extremes. Where are we now in the church? what religious extremes are we facing today? When You see this you will see where the Holy Ghost is moving. Look at what is dealt with on this site as a case and point of this. These are the corruptions of the Pentecostal movement, things such as Hebrew roots, Dominionism, Word faith and prosperity preaching, All are rooted in the Post modernist mindset that came to fruition in the 60's, but was ultimately born in the Pentecostal movement as a liberating force, which has become a force of bondage now and opposition to the truth. The way I see it, as a sociologist is that each church age progresses from a movement of liberation of the Spirit working in them, to that movement becoming institutionalized, and becoming bigger than the individuals, and thereby becoming corrupted, till once again a small minority receive the Move of the Holy Ghost and the will to speak up and post their 95 theses on the door of that new cathedral, and a new movement is born. Do not confuse this with the Hegellian dialectic, in which a synthesis is formed, that is more binding than the rest, But this is a move of the Holy Ghost, God inserting himself into the social dialectic of the church, and transforming it till we all reach the fulness. The final outpouring of the Spirit will be the gift of discernment. The ability to see who serves God and who does not (Mal. 3:18). God Bless. This is a synopsis of church history and more commonly understood than one might think. The Lord will raise up a group--small or large--to hold the banner, the torch of testimony. That expression of Himself (as incomplete) as it inevitably is also inevitably becomes 'man led'. When that happens. When the Lordship of Christ is no longer the only focus, it dies spiritually. The Lord moves on and raises another. He always maintains a witness on this earth in this age. The specific doctrinal focus in any 'move of the Spirit' is far less important than a focus on His Lordship and reliance on the Holy Spirit. The Lord is not offended by many of our foibles. It is however required that He is Lord in our midst. Our doctrine often becomes lord. Our current understandings can become lord. All Life for the Church flows from Him--the Head. Even in the church age, we have erected towers--that need to come crashing down--in order to know Him as Lord. Edited February 24, 2020 by Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said: You said that there was no need to seek anything more than the Word of God. I know that when you speak of the "Word of God", you are speaking of scripture. I believe we have every reason to seek to draw closer to Jesus. That desire does not mean that we seek something more than we find in scripture, but rather what we do find in scripture. do you understand or do you need further clarification? this is sola Scriptura above and below is already my comment to others on this 35 minutes ago, enoob57 said: I wanted to treat this separately as one common thread of the charismatic movement is suggesting that there is more than just the Word of God and it is found in the subjective nature of experience: We know God's plans for the eternal state is the removal of all 1st creative elements of existence- Rev 21:1-5 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. KJV Therefore the things not being kept by God we are not to attach our hearts to for we will enter in to this newness with Him... So the eternity before Lucifer's fall -and- the eternity after satan is put away and all that followed him... that which remains in God will be the keeping of God …. This fulfills the faith generated by The Word of God Heb 11:1 11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. KJV thus to proclaim there is anything greater in measure of experience than this The Word of God I beg to differ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said: So, your view is that you consider tongues something inferior to what you seek? Two aspects of tongues one is with interpretation whenever used in public and can be weighed by the Word of God... two speaking no know language sometimes accredited to angelic talk which is to be done in private as no interpretation can be derived... if this were what was being done then it would be at least to Scriptures guide lines... and there would be no issues with such! 10 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said: You believe that tongues is still a valid manifestation? I think the cessationist have a good Scriptural support for their view As 1Tim 3:15-17 indicate Scripture is able to make one perfect and we have the completed canon of Scripture thus the perfect then must have come thus that which 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,456 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said: My sola scriptura is, "seek to prophecy, but do not forbid tongues." in my other posts I have answered this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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