simplejeff Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 4:47 PM, DarrenJClark said: There are three main views of hell in Evangelicalism. There is the view that God will punish the wicked in hell forever (I will call this the eternal conscious punishment, or ECP view), there is the view that when God punishes the wicked in hell it will destroy or kill them (I will call this conditional immortality, or CI), and there is the view that God will refine the wicked in hell so as to ensure all are purified and eventually saved (I will call this purgatorial universal reconciliation, or PUR). This by no means a comprehensive descriptions of these views of hell. I am a conditionalist. I am wondering if people would please identify which view of hell they currently follow and list the single strongest argument for that view. I like to talk about how and why people hold to the doctrines they do rather than simply argue with them so I hope I can learn something new about these various views on hell. Thankyou. Perhaps it is best not to hold to any doctrines, especially any of hell, since it seems most people (in USA, etc, everywhere on earth) learn when they are young, not from Scripture, but from their parents or from a group/ church/ school these days (for centuries), and most seem to hold to ideas even if they are opposed to all Scripture. The most prevalent ideas seem to have come from greek myths, and from tradition, instead of from Scripture. As written in James , if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, Who gives to ALL MEN generously and without reproach. (all men even the unrighteous !!!!!!! ) ...... Thus, ask always of God, and receive always from God (every (EVERY) good gift is from the Father in heaven), and never compromise, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu of Whoville Posted February 15, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2019 Okay Darren, Why don't we talk about specific verses that seem to indicate eternal conscious torment. I would like to hear your take on these verses and how they would fit into a conditionalist viewpoint. First --- Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ’Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." & then Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Second - - - Daniel 12:1 ¶ "...everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Stu of Whoville said: Okay Darren, Why don't we talk about specific verses that seem to indicate eternal conscious torment. I would like to hear your take on these verses and how they would fit into a conditionalist viewpoint. First --- Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ’Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." & then Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Second - - - Daniel 12:1 ¶ "...everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." First, let me reiterate that my reservation to using the exact terminology eternal death stems more from how those holding to the traditional view would misunderstand it than anything else. I am from Rethinking Hell if you care to look us up and check out how we interpret thee verses you cite. My thoughts on Matthew 25:41, 46 are that Matthew ha unambiguously told us throughout his narrative that the final fate of the wicked will be their death (Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42; 18:8-9) so when he gets to talking about eternal life and eternal punishment in an eternal fire he means to say that this is their death. I do not need to have a different understanding of eternal to admit this. In Matthew 25:46, eternal life is juxtaposed with eternal punishment but I interpret that as saying that the sheep will have eternal life but the goats will have he opposite fate of capital punishment (due to what Matthew has already informed us is the punishment). It is properly considered as eternal because it is the punishment of the next age and it is forever (a in the wicked will be dead forever). It is a permanent death. I would speak of this as an eternal death, except all the traditionalists I interact with assume it means eternal dying. Nevertheless, if we let Matthew tell us what he thought the punishment was there is no doubt he mean the true death that would last forever. As for Daniel 12:2 (not 12:1) most people fall into the trap of dittography, thinking when Daniel wrote "others to shame and everlasting contempt" he meant to say "eternal shame and eternal contempt. No! This is literally what is not in the verse. Once this is accepted (and it really should be since it is literally what this verse says) then the only element of this verse we have to explain as being eternal is contempt. Most people assume contempt must imply the wicked are alive and conscious but this is not so. The Hebrew word for contempt in Dan 12:2 is very rare in the OT and is only used elsewhere in Isaiah 66:24 where the living look on the dead enemies of God with contempt. Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." The word abhorrence here is that same word use for contempt in Dan 12:2. Contempt/abhorrence describes the disposition of the living towards the dead and does not imply the wicked will be alive and conscious at all. Again, I might call this eternal death but people have a habit of seeing eternal and thinking it means the wicked are alive and kicking. So, while I can see that eternal death is something we might make of these verses is still would not use it because it is not actually in the text and people do tend to misunderstand what it means. If it I not in the Bible then I can avoid it to avoid miscommunication. That is my approach, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu of Whoville Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said: I am from Rethinking Hell if you care to look us up and check out how we interpret thee verses you cite. I suspected as much. 11 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said: As for Daniel 12:2 (not 12:1) most people fall into the trap of dittography, thinking when Daniel wrote "others to shame and everlasting contempt" he meant to say "eternal shame and eternal contempt. I also understand you explanation and thought seriously about replacing this verse with another soon after including it. Clearly it is the contempt of the righteous for the wicked which is eternal. However, I am still troubled by the thought that eternal contempt could mean eternal conscious torment. 14 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said: so when he gets to talking about eternal life and eternal punishment in an eternal fire he means to say that this is their death. This is the verse that I find most difficult. It seems to me that the conditionalist have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it say that this is not eternal punishment even though the text says 'eternal punishment.' I personally like the idea that this does not mean an ongoing punishment with no end but that it instead means a quick death followed by an eternity of non-living silence. However, I don't have the luxury of believing that if that isn't what the text says. I have heard the conditionalist argument for this verse and honestly, I wish their argument was better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just now, Stu of Whoville said: I am still troubled by the thought that eternal contempt could mean eternal conscious torment. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just now, Stu of Whoville said: This is the verse that I find most difficult. It seems to me that the conditionalist have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it say that this is not eternal punishment even though the text says 'eternal punishment.' I personally like the idea that this does not mean an ongoing punishment with no end but that it instead means a quick death followed by an eternity of non-living silence. However, I don't have the luxury of believing that if that isn't what the text says. I have heard the conditionalist argument for this verse and honestly, I wish their argument was better. Again, why? I showed you verses where Matthew explicitly tells us that the last judgment of the wicked is their destruction and death. I do not have to jump through hoops to get there. All I have to do is let Matthew tell me what he means. I do not deny eternal punishment. I think this is the eternal punishment, being dead forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu of Whoville Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said: Again, why? I showed you verses where Matthew explicitly tells us that the last judgment of the wicked is their destruction and death. I do not have to jump through hoops to get there. All I have to do is let Matthew tell me what he means. I do not deny eternal punishment. I think this is the eternal punishment, being dead forever. I myself have taught your point of view, but I nonetheless find the verse troubling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrenJClark Posted February 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just now, Stu of Whoville said: I myself have taught your point of view, but I nonetheless find the verse troubling. Ok. I accept that is your journey. I do not find it troubling at all. Eternal punishment is Matthew's way of summarizing his previous teaching on the fate of the wicked. I have no doubt about his ability to communicate consistently and have no trouble expunging contemporary ideas of "eternal" so can avoid anachronistically reading ideas into the text. So, no, that verse is, in my view, good evidence for conditionalism. I do not demand that you agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.31 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted February 26, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 2:47 PM, DarrenJClark said: There are three main views of hell in Evangelicalism. There is the view that God will punish the wicked in hell forever (I will call this the eternal conscious punishment, or ECP view), there is the view that when God punishes the wicked in hell it will destroy or kill them (I will call this conditional immortality, or CI), and there is the view that God will refine the wicked in hell so as to ensure all are purified and eventually saved (I will call this purgatorial universal reconciliation, or PUR). This by no means a comprehensive descriptions of these views of hell. I am a conditionalist. I am wondering if people would please identify which view of hell they currently follow and list the single strongest argument for that view. I like to talk about how and why people hold to the doctrines they do rather than simply argue with them so I hope I can learn something new about these various views on hell. Thankyou. I believe hell is finding ourselves in the midst of circumstances, brought on by our own sin, that are unpleasant, circumstances from which there is no escape without the Lord's guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3L13v3R Posted February 26, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,261 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 1,035 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 10:47 PM, DarrenJClark said: ...There is the view that God will punish the wicked in hell forever The Lake of Fire will be their eternal abode without Christ, while Hell itself is temporal. Hell is emptied out at some point in the not too distant future, and the unsaved lost that were in it are then judged by Jesus Christ. Everything ever done by the lost is written in these books mentioned in the below verses found in Revelation. Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 21:6-8 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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