How Can I Be Saved?

[Kansasdad]

This person was truly on fire for God for several years. Very active with the youth of the church, involved with the ministry of the church, demonstrated his Christianity in the community. Never hid his faith but didn't flaunt it either. The slipping took several years, a gradual process. I think this example is quite common, maybe not ending with the extreme, I used Homosexuality to make it very obvious that this person was no longer walking with God. It could be some one is so angry with God for the loss of a child, or spouse that they "Hate" God, and they walk away from God.

So what you are saying is that a person that has been "truly" saved would never committ such sins, Therefor this person was never truly saved in the first place?

Is that what you are saying?

Kansas Dad

[EricH]

This person was truly on fire for God for several years.  Very active with the youth of the church, involved with the ministry of the church, demonstrated his Christianity in the community.  Never hid his faith but didn't flaunt it either.  The slipping took several years, a gradual process.  I think this example is quite common, maybe not ending with the extreme, I used Homosexuality to make it very obvious that this person was no longer walking with God.  It could be some one is so angry with God for the loss of a child, or spouse that they "Hate" God, and they walk away from God. 

So what you are saying is that a person that has been "truly" saved would never committ such sins, Therefor this person was never truly saved in the first place?

Is that what you are saying?

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, what I am saying is that the person was not behaving in a way that is consistent with one who had experienced regeneration in Christ.

There are 2 possibilities:

1. They were not saved

2. They were saved but have chosen to live carnaly, to allow the old nature to rule over the new nature they received at salvation

The person themselves would have to answer the question why. I can't. All I can do is oberve behavior, and say it is not the behavior one would expect from a person who has received the Holy Spirit into their lives.

[Pax]

A scenario like this is why I never assure people they are saved. I simply tell them that if what the bible describes as salvation is true for them, then they  are saved.

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You are smart Eric for not assurring people they are saved.

[EricH]

A scenario like this is why I never assure people they are saved. I simply tell them that if what the bible describes as salvation is true for them, then they

[Kansasdad]

Quote from Eric:No, what I am saying is that the person was not behaving in a way that is consistent with one who had experienced regeneration in Christ.

There are 2 possibilities:

1. They were not saved

2. They were saved but have chosen to live carnaly, to allow the old nature to rule over the new nature they received at salvation

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Ok where I have the question is #2. By all definitions he was saved. He even believes that himself. However he is living in serious sin (whatever sin you want to insert)_

Are you saying he will still go to heaven? Just to let you know where I am coming from, I don't think so, and I will look up some verses to support my thinking. But I am trying to understand completely what you are saying. Again?He goes to heaven no matter what?

Thanks for your response

Kansas Dad

[EricH]

Quote from Eric:No, what I am saying is that the person was not behaving in a way that is consistent with one who had experienced regeneration in Christ.

There are 2 possibilities:

1. They were not saved

2. They were saved but have chosen to live carnaly, to allow the old nature to rule over the new nature they received at salvation

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Ok where I have the question is #2.

[EricH]

Here is a response I put on the Idol thread that may have some bearing here:

I think there is a disconnect here. What I am hearing from my Catholic friends is that they are not bowing to the image, they are bowing to the spiritual reality behind the image. We as evangelicals have a hard time with that. The image reminds them of a spritual truth. If we as evangelicals think we don't have these types of things, we are blind. Try removing the cross from your sanctuary and see what happens.

The way I see it, this is not unlike the phylacteries our Jewish friends used to carry with them and place near their doors. They would frequently kiss them as a sign of reverence. The were not revering the paper, but the reality the paper represented.

This is one area where I think we could learn, at least to some degree from our Catholic friends. I think many of us in Evangelical circles have lost some of the mystery and otherness of God in our worship. He is just our buddy. We are missing the trancendance of God. The beauty I have seen in some Catholic churchs can certainly enhance that.

Now are there Cathilocs who do this mindlessly? Sure. There are also evangelicals who do things mindlessly. As I have been thinking the last few days about these discussions, it occurs to me that when we protestants think of Catholics, we think of the ones that are the worst possible examples. Catholics do the same regarding protestants.

Example: in the discussions Pax and I have had regarding how we can be saved, I will always point to Catholics who trust in ritual to save them. Pax would point to protestants who live sinfully and trust in faith to save them. Both are extremes within our traditions.

I guess what I am saying (and I am as guilty of this as the next guy) is we need to make sure we are hearing what the person is really saying, and not set up some straw man we can easily knock down.

I have started watching Fr. John Corapi on EWTN so I make sure I understand what Catholics really believe and the underlying reasons for their beliefs. That way when I do disagree, I understand what I am disagreeing with.

Now go ahead and fire away

[Kansasdad]

Please forgive me I am not trying to be difficult.

but you stated "

But scripture does teach:

1. We come by faith

2. True faith produces works

3. You cannot lose salvation once it has truly occurred "

So by #3 Once saved Always saved? So either The person was never saved in the first place and therefore is not going to heaven or he was saved and he is going to heaven regardless of his sins.

Is that an accurate statement?

Kansas Dad

[EricH]

Please forgive me I am not trying to be difficult.

but you stated "

But scripture does teach:

1. We come by faith

2. True faith produces works

3. You cannot lose salvation once it has truly occurred "

So by #3 Once saved Always saved?  So either The person was never saved in the first place and therefore is not going to heaven or he was saved and he is going to heaven regardless of his sins. 

Is that an accurate statement?

Kansas Dad

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We are all (believers I mean) going to heaven regardless of our sins. Christ paid the penalty for our sins. Faith is what saves us, not the ceasing of sin. The ceasing of sin is a by-product of a salvation that has already taken place. So, if some one persists in a sinful lifestyle, it would give others a reason to question. But we cannot know. Only God can know, because only He sees the heart. We can judge the fruits, but not the heart. Again, eternal security only applies to those for whom everything the Bible has to say about salvation is true. But once one is truly saved (in God's eyes), they cannot be "unsaved". They have been dealed by the Holy Spirit.

I think the problem is that you are asking me to say whether or not a person was legitimately saved in the first place or not. I can't do that. Thats why the situation you described is difficult. Your initial contention (that they were saved) is the sticking point. In whose eyes? If they were truly saved in God's eyes the issue is settled, no matter what you or I may think. All I know is what the Bible teaches about salvation (in terms of what is required, and how it is maintained). I also know the fruits of repentance. I also know all believers still struggle with sin. All of these have to come together in what ever position we take.

HTH

[Kansasdad]

You are right we can not know what is in a mans heart. But just so I can get some understanding of what you are saying. For the purpose of discussion lets say the man was saved. Gods Graces was given to him, he acdepted it, he was transformed and born again.

#1 I can see two possibilities from your prespective. If a person is committing grevious sins (child molesting) there is no way they could have been truley saved in the first place therefore not saved, no Grace. Therefore anyone who is committing terrible sins was never truley saved in the first place. OR

#2 They were truley saved in the first place and a saved Child molester (molesting children after being saved) will go to heaven anyway? If you can't agree with this than #1 has to be true.

Is there another posibility?

Thanks:

Kansas Dad