Popular Post GandalfTheWise Posted May 14, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 I've been observing some rather heated threads lately rehashing the same topic that have been increasingly lacking in grace and obvious fruit of the Spirit. I enjoy reading and participating in fruitful dialogue and debate. However, some posts in these threads have gotten to the point of being ludicrous and accusatory. I'm of course referring to threads debating the presence, role, possibility (or impossibility), and causes of assurance and holiness in a Christian's life. Whether this is cast as a OSAS/non-OSAS debate or whatever, in my opinion, these threads are ultimately dealing with questions regarding the place of assurance and holiness in a Christian's life. Here is a summary of what I've been seeing. Here are three statements in which I try to simplify and generalize what I've been reading in posts in these threads. 1. The Bible clearly teaches that Christians should have full assurance of their salvation. 2. The Bible clearly teaches that Christians should be holy and that sin should not be part of a Christian's life. 3. Full assurance and holiness are in conflict with each other. One side believes that if one is fully assured of their salvation, it is because they know any particular sin has no effect on their salvation. The other side believes that if one has significant amounts of sin in their life, they cannot be sure they are abiding in Christ. The net result is the same, one must pick between one of the two as being critical to the Christian's life and the other as a luxury. One side agrees with statements 1 and 3 and the other side agrees with statements 2 and 3. As these debates have progressed, I've been starting to read some ludicrous and unhealthy things and well as ludicrous accusations toward others. I won't rehash the details. I will however try to present an option for us to move forward in good conscience and healthy spiritual encouragement and growth with each other. My opinion is that assurance and holiness are both fruit that grow and mature in a Christian's life. They are both things that we should have in ever increasing measure as we abide in Christ and grow spiritually. I've come to this conclusion through two main sources. The first is that I think the Bible (in several places) teaches that both assurance and holiness are to be part of a Christian's life. The second is that I've been observing Christians closely for over 40 years and comparing what they say they believe versus how they actually behave. I believe that the Bible rather clearly teaches both assurance and holiness. For example, comparing I John 2:1 (My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.) and I John 5:13 (I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. ) In Greek, it is rather apparent that both statements have the same general force, that John is writing this letter so that something both desirable and possible would be present in a Christian's life. I read this as John saying the both assurance and holiness are something important to be part of a believer's life. I find it difficult to swallow that one statement speaks of a direct command or promise and the other as a hypothetical impossibility as many of the debates I've seen would make them out to be. This is that same way I see many other sets of verses dealing with both assurance and holiness. I find it difficult to explain away either set of verses as being hypothetical impossibilities while the other set is a certainty. Over my life as a Christian, I've been part of churches and ministries that come down on both sides of this issue. I've had a chance to observe Christians on both sides of this issue up close and personal for extended periods of time. As a practical matter, I don't see any significant differences except for their verbal explanations of things. If I thought one side was clearly exhibiting more spiritual fruit than the other, I've have come down on that side myself. Instead, I'm seeing the same range of spiritual immaturity to maturity and growth among Christians on both sides of this. I've read enough of church history to see Christians across the centuries have been debating this and that fruitful effective ministries had come down on both sides of this issue. What I am basically seeing is that the spiritual growth in Christians that comes from abiding in Christ is similar in all Christians. It's just that some groups explain it differently and start to consider agreeing with their explanation was of having more importance than actual spiritual growth. There are literally churches across the street from each other that cannot in good conscience work with each other over this issue. My opinion is that this is tragic and sad. I've spent a career as an applied physicist and analyst. One of the things this has done for me is that it has honed my ability to distinguish between facts and observations of things and explanations about those things. It is the difference between a menu and a meal. I've spent a lifetime looking closely at what Christians really do and say versus what they say they believe. In my opinion, the church has often sadly blurred this distinction between menu and meal and spends more time indoctrinating new Christians that the menu is more important than the meal. Sadly, many Christians judge other Christians by what menu they carry around rather than how well they can prepare a meal. In practice, I think most Christians know deep in their hearts that both assurance and holiness are to be part of the Christian life. If we see either lacking to a serious degree, we intuitively know something is wrong and become distressed over it. This is the reality of spiritual growth and abiding in Christ. We see both grow in our lives. God uses many methods and means to transform and change us that we become increasingly holy. We become more and more accustomed to God's presence and our trust and confidence and assurance in Him grows. In many years I've spent in ministries that differ on this, the majority of behavior and teaching I observed included both holiness and assurance. I didn't see people in non-OSAS churches wandering around in terror of God nor did I see people in OSAS churches flaunting sin. Yes, I've seen people point the finger at the other side and change sides and some go off the deep end one way or another, but I saw it in equal measures both ways. The main thing is that I've seen assurance and holiness in equal measure among mature believers. I've seen doubt and sin in equal measure among immature believers. I've seen the growth that occurs in both assurance and holiness as Christians grow and mature over months, years, and decades. So anyway, at the risk of teeing off both sides and coming under fire for encouraging both sinning and saying Christians should walk around quaking in terror, these are my opinions and observations on the matter. 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted May 14, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted May 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said: I've been observing some rather heated threads lately rehashing the same topic that have been increasingly lacking in grace and obvious fruit of the Spirit. I enjoy reading and participating in fruitful dialogue and debate. However, some posts in these threads have gotten to the point of being ludicrous and accusatory. I'm of course referring to threads debating the presence, role, possibility (or impossibility), and causes of assurance and holiness in a Christian's life. Whether this is cast as a OSAS/non-OSAS debate or whatever, in my opinion, these threads are ultimately dealing with questions regarding the place of assurance and holiness in a Christian's life. Tremendous post, Gandalf. Yes, this has been quite a sticky wicket here amongst WCF members. Hopefully we can get onto more edifying posts and topics. Thanks for this thoughtful observant commentary. God bless! Shalom, David/BeauJangles 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekoudah Posted May 14, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 302 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 624 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/04/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2019 The way I see it...holiness IS assurance. Let me explain... If we are walking in our own strength and still messing things up from time to time...in a very human way...then any assurance we have may be arbitrary...IOW our hope is intact....but what level of faith are we walking in. Now if a person is walking in the Spirit...filled with love, joy and peace so that NO WAY this is by human power....then one can be assured that they are partaking of the salvation of God. Of course we will all be judged for more than what we experience in any moment, hour or day. But in the same way we know that there is love for God in our hearts and that our hope of a future salvation is alive...so also the spiritual realm which we enter by faith testifies to the angels as well as men...that we are His. THAT is the kind of assurance that is by faith and not just by hope. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekoudah Posted May 14, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 302 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 624 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/04/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said: Sadly, many Christians judge other Christians by what menu they carry around rather than how well they can prepare a meal. Amen. An interesting way of putting it. What I call this is the false assumption that God is looking for an accuracy of beliefs...rather than a life lived in the power and love of Christ. We tend to be once removed from truth...as in..."I saw the man that saw the bear." We are after all, reading an account in the bible of those who interacted with God. So unless we also interact with God...as it is written in the bible...then we will only have a knowledge ABOUT God. And since immature believers still walk with pride...that is where the sticking point will be....at their "menu" as you say...or what they see as accuracy of beliefs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted May 21, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,244 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2019 Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers! For they shall be called sons of God. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts