a multitude from the Tribulation

[R. Hartono]

19 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

No, ...and why not, ...because their blood was tainted by the demons!

 

How about babies n children of Sodom n Gomorra, why God didnt spare them, and why would you deem God must rapture all babies n children of unbelieving parents ? Its the duty of their parents to accept Salvation for the whole family and children.

Edited May 29, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Cletus said:

it was also done in the book of daniel, you know when you hear the musick of the... you will bow to the golden image.  The enemy is not original.  same lies and tactics repackaged over and over.  every since the garden. 

there are a number of prophecies that have come to pass more than once.  the one spoken of here will come to pass once more. 

Shalom, Cletus.

No. NO. NO!!! A THOUSAND TIMES "NO!" (I'm not mad at you, but I'm FURIOUS about that stupid teaching and philosophy!!!) It is absolutely NOT TRUE that "there are a number of prophecies that have come to pass more than once!" And, it is absolutely UNCOOL to think that they have or will!

PROPHECIES ARE NEVER RE-USED!!!

Look, just THINK about it rationally! If a prophecy could be re-used, then how could one know when a prophet was false?! "Oh, it didn't work here; it works here later in history." THAT'S JUST TOTALLY BOGUS!!!!!!

Here's what God's Word has to say about false, lying, fake prophets:

Deuteronomy 13:1-5

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (KJV)

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart,

"How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?"

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

God takes prophecies MUCH more seriously than you are!

THIS prophecy of Yeshua` Himself is FINISHED! NEVER TO BE REPEATED AGAIN!!!

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Friend, .......it's JESUS who is saying there will be pregnant women and nursing mothers during the Tribulation,

...are you questioning GOD,

...are you doubting GOD"S WORD?

Not one single bird falls to the ground without God knowing about it, all of the hair on our heads are numbered by Him, ...7 trillion people an the planet and He is controlling each and every one's breathing, ...not to mention every single bird, cow, fish, insect breathing on the planet, ...and that's just on this ball of dirt, what about everything in the entire Universe.......

...my question to you is, ...how BIG is your God? 

Shalom, JustPassingThru.

Sorry, but Yeshua` ("JESUS") was saying this about 66-70 A.D. He was NOT talking about some future, 7-year "Tribulation" in OUR time!

[R. Hartono]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JustPassingThru.

Sorry, but Yeshua` ("JESUS") was saying this about 66-70 A.D. He was NOT talking about some future, 7-year "Tribulation" in OUR time!

Sorry Retro, the EXODUS of the Jews out of Israel as described here did not happen at 70 AD.

Mat 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

Sorry Retro, the EXODUS of the Jews out of Israel as described here did not happen at 70 AD.

Mat 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Don't you even know history? Yes, they DID attempt to escape! (That's what "flight" means, not "flying" like a bird.) Read history BEFORE 70 A.D! You SHALL find it.

Furthermore, it happened again in 136 A.D! It wasn't called an "EXODUS"; it was called the "Diaspora" - a "SCATTERING" OF THE PEOPLE, including both a CAPTIVITY sold as slaves and a DEPORTATION to all other countries of the Roman Empire!

It was to THIS EVENT that Yeshua` warned His disciples! And, so scattered were His people that it wasn't until 1948 that the Jews were able to reclaim officially the Land! Even today, the Muslim countries that surround them will not acknowledge Israel as a sovereign nation nor their right to the Land! Thus, the children of Israel REMAIN "scattered!" 

To that extent was the seriousness of Yeshua`s words in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

[R. Hartono]

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Don't you even know history? Yes, they DID attempt to escape! (That's what "flight" means, not "flying" like a bird.) Read history BEFORE 70 A.D! You SHALL find it.

Furthermore, it happened again in 136 A.D! It wasn't called an "EXODUS"; it was called the "Diaspora" - a "SCATTERING" OF THE PEOPLE, including both a CAPTIVITY sold as slaves and a DEPORTATION to all other countries of the Roman Empire!

It was to THIS EVENT that Yeshua` warned His disciples! And, so scattered were His people that it wasn't until 1948 that the Jews were able to reclaim officially the Land! Even today, the Muslim countries that surround them will not acknowledge Israel as a sovereign nation nor their right to the Land! Thus, the children of Israel REMAIN "scattered!" 

To that extent was the seriousness of Yeshua`s words in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Sorry Retro, the great tribulation which force the exodus as described by Jesus (such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time no nor ever shall be) has not happened yet because it will only happen at the end of the world (The Great Tribulation).

Mat 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Further, many Jews were still in the land of Israel at 70 AD until they further had 2 battles against the Roman end ended at 136 CE at Bar Kothba battle.

When the exodus happen there will be no chance for the Jews to return to Israel until Jesus return to Armageddon battle and then Jesus shall rule from Jerusalem.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by R. Hartono

[jsimms615]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It's really very simple: the whole Church is seen in  the persons of John and the 12 elders of Rev. 4. Thirteen people.

The Great Multitude which no one (not no man, but no one, including angels) can number are all the ones converted after the Rapture. And since there is mentioned the number of 200 million later in Revelation, it has to be a whole lot more than that.

Despite the fact that there is not a peep about their being converted. 

And I have a bridge I can make you a great deal on...

The FACT is, the only ones the Bible mentions being converted at the coming of Christ are the Jews, in Zech. 12:10 :

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the dead are raised, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the heathen wail, the Wrath begins

...at the 6th Seal.

 

 

 

The obvious problem with that thought that these are just Jews is that it says that people from all nations and people groups are represented and not just Jews.

[Retrobyter]

17 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Sorry Retro, the great tribulation which force the exodus as described by Jesus (such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time no nor ever shall be) has not happened yet because it will only happen at the end of the world (The Great Tribulation).

Mat 24: 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Further, many Jews were still in the land of Israel at 70 AD until they further had 2 battles against the Roman end ended at 136 CE at Bar Kothba battle.

When the exodus happen there will be no chance for the Jews to return to Israel until Jesus return to Armageddon battle and then Jesus shall rule from Jerusalem.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

You THINK this way because you are "locked in" to the opinion that the "great tribulation" has to do with the seventieth Seven of Daniel 9. There is absolutely NO biblical proof that the two are synonymous! To the contrary, you will find (if you take the time to study it out with an open mind) that the two CANNOT co-exist!

It's not "[---3.5 years] MIDPOINT EVENT [3.5 years---] equals The Great Tribulation";
it's "[---3.5 years] MIDPERIOD GREAT TRIBULATION [3.5 years ---]".

That "Great Tribulation" = "time of Jacob's Trouble" = "the times of the Gentiles," when "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles."

When you get that straight, you will begin to find the answers to many of your conflicts of Scripture.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Retrobyter

[R. Hartono]

18 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

You THINK this way because you are "locked in" to the opinion that the "great tribulation" has to do with the seventieth Seven of Daniel 9. There is absolutely NO biblical proof that the two are synonymous! To the contrary, you will find (if you take the time to study it out with an open mind) that the two CANNOT co-exist!

It's not "[---3.5 years] MIDPOINT EVENT [3.5 years---] equals The Great Tribulation";
it's "[---3.5 years] MIDPERIOD GREAT TRIBULATION [3.5 years ---]".

That "Great Tribulation" = "time of Jacob's Trouble" = "the times of the Gentiles," when "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles."

When you get that straight, you will begin to find the answers to many of your conflicts of Scripture.

The Times of Jacob trouble has not happened n that is when the AOD happen followed with the Exodus of the jews.

[Retrobyter]

30 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

The Times of Jacob trouble has not happened n that is when the AOD happen followed with the Exodus of the jews.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Well, according to your theology, that's the progression, but that's NOT according to the progression shown in Scripture. When we reduce events and periods to labels, we cheapen the events and periods. It might SEEM to make them easier to plot on graphs and charts, but one loses the impact of what is being said in Scripture.

Lose the nebulous labels by using synonyms for those key words back within the original passages of Scripture that give us those words used as labels:

Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV with modifications)

9 "Then shall they deliver you (disciples) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you (disciples): and ye (disciples) shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye (disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye (disciples) that your flight (the flight or escape of the disciples) be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation terrible pressure, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you (disciples),

'Lo (Look!), here is Christ (here's the Messiah!),' 

or

'there (He is!)';

believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs (fake Messiahs), and false prophets (fake prophets), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (chosen ones). 25 Behold, I have told you (disciples) before (it happens).

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you (disciples),

"Behold (Look!), he is in the desert!;

go not forth:

"behold (Look!), he is in the secret chambers!";

believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jeremiah 30:1-9 (KJV with modificaions)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 

2 "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying,

'Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo (look!), the days come,'

saith the LORD,

'that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah,'

saith the LORD:

'and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'

4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the LORD;

'We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; the time for Ya`aqov's distress but he shall be saved (rescued) out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day,' 

saith the LORD of hosts, 

'that I will break his (Ya`aqov's) yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy (YOUR singular) bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.'"

 

Luke 21:12-24 (KJV modified)

12 "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you (disciples), and persecute you (disciples), delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you (disciples) for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts (the hearts of the disciples), not to meditate before what ye (disciples) shall answer: 15 For I will give you (disciples) a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries (the adversaries of the disciples) shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye (disciples) shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye (disciples) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head (the head of each of the disciples) perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls (in your endurance, you disciples will gain your lives or 'air-breathers').

20 "And when ye (disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword (why not a gun or a bomb?), and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of  (OVERRUN BY) the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles the Gentiles' occupation of Jerusalem be fulfilled."

If one takes the mystery out of the passage of Scripture, it becomes more real to the reader.