Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[douggg]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Ezekiel 37 does, Re: Making the dry bones live.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Their graves are the nations they have been exiled for having rejected Jesus to be their King, and of their idolatry resulting in the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by douggg

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I don't have to type or pencil in the seven years into the text.   It is already there.   

During the intial years following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think they are living in the messianic age.    They will burn the remains of Gog's army instead of gathering wood and cutting trees.   That part is directly in the text.

In the middle part of the 7 years, their presumed messiah goes bad and betrays them.   And eventually becomes the beast.   And the AoD is made and setup in the temple.

When that happens, the Jews flee into the wilderness, the mountains, to escape persecution by the beast.    The remains of Gog's army destroyed in the mountains, 3 years earlier, will be God's provision for the Jews to have a source of fuel for heat, and cooking, and there will be the meals-ready-to eat in the vehicles, while they are in the wilderness, until Jesus returns.

That those 7 years are the same 7 years in Daniel 9:27, it takes awareness that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is already a requirement of the leader(s) of Israel that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

And awareness that the confirming (a big speech) has to be done from the place of God's choosing, which I have discussed with the Jews themselves that they consider to be the temple mount.   Which can't be done until after Gog/Magog when the muslims are no longer on the temple mount.

I am sorry, But I still do not see this in the text. It is not there. The seven years are the first seven years of the millennial reign of Christ When the weapons are burned for fuel. Like I said I am not denying that there will be some sort of war before the covenant is made, but it will not be the Gog Magog war. There are not three Gog Magog Wars... Israel is in the Holy Land for the last half of the 7 years, hence the term "Jacob's trouble" not in the wilderness. What the Jews in Israel are ready for is a war with their neighbors (psalm 83), which they will think is the Gog Magog war, and will receive the beast as their messiah after that war, But this is not the Gog Magog war. This is the purpose of the two witnesses, They with their prophesying will say this beast is not the Messiah, and this is why when they are resurrected Israel will know their error.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

I am sorry, But I still do not see this in the text. It is not there. The seven years are the first seven years of the millennial reign of Christ When the weapons are burned for fuel.

The 7 years are in the text of Ezekiel 39:9.  

The 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 are not the first seven years of the millennial reign of Christ, because according to Ezekiel 38,  Israel has to be in a state of peace before the Gog/Magog attack.

Israel will be in the time of Jacob's troubles, the great tribulation, not peace, right before Jesus's return.

________________________________________________________

Israel is in a state of peace right now, not at war with anyone.   Children going to school, shopping in the stores, playing soccer and basketball, tour groups visiting the different site in the country.

Gog/Magog will build rapidly and attack Israel, when Israel is in a state of peace.    

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

There are not three Gog Magog Wars... Israel is in the Holy Land for the last half of the 7 years, hence the term "Jacob's trouble" not in the wilderness.

It is not called a war in the text of Gog/Magog.   I would call it more of an attack, than a war..    Regardless, there are not three Gog/Magog "wars".    

The mountainous parts of Israel are considered the wilderness.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

What the Jews in Israel are ready for is a war with their neighbors (psalm 83), which they will think is the Gog Magog war, and will receive the beast as their messiah after that war, But this is not the Gog Magog war.

I personally am skeptical that there will a separate war, from the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.   I think the Psalms 83 nations will be part of the Ezekiel 38 listed nations in the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

And if there was a Psalms 83 war, the Jews would not confuse it with the Gog/Magog attack because Iran (Persia) is specifically listed in Ezekiel 38:5.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

This is the purpose of the two witnesses, They with their prophesying will say this beast is not the Messiah, and this is why when they are resurrected Israel will know their error.

The two witnesses begin prophesying against the person at the very start of the 7 years, when the person has been anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah.

The person does not become the beast until around three years later, and after he has been rejected by the Jews as continuing as their King of Israel, for claiming to be God.

Edited July 28, 2019 by douggg

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I am sorry, But I still do not see this in the text. It is not there. The seven years are the first seven years of the millennial reign of Christ When the weapons are burned for fuel.

The 7 years are in the text of Ezekiel 39:9.  

The 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 are not the first seven years of the millennial reign of Christ, because according to Ezekiel 38,  Israel has to be in a state of peace before the Gog/Magog attack.

Israel will be in the time of Jacob's troubles, the great tribulation, not peace, right before Jesus's return.

________________________________________________________

Israel is in a state of peace right now, not at war with anyone.   Children going to school, shopping in the stores, playing soccer and basketball, tour groups visiting the different site in the country.

Gog/Magog will build rapidly and attack Israel, when Israel is in a state of peace.    

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

There are not three Gog Magog Wars... Israel is in the Holy Land for the last half of the 7 years, hence the term "Jacob's trouble" not in the wilderness.

It is not called a war in the text of Gog/Magog.   I would call it more of an attack, than a war..    Regardless, there are not three Gog/Magog "wars".    

The mountainous parts of Israel are considered the wilderness.

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

What the Jews in Israel are ready for is a war with their neighbors (psalm 83), which they will think is the Gog Magog war, and will receive the beast as their messiah after that war, But this is not the Gog Magog war.

I personally am skeptical that there will a separate war, from the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.   I think the Psalms 83 nations will be part of the Ezekiel 38 listed nations in the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

And if there was a Psalms 83 war, the Jews would not confuse it with the Gog/Magog attack because Iran (Persia) is specifically listed in Ezekiel 38:5.

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This is the purpose of the two witnesses, They with their prophesying will say this beast is not the Messiah, and this is why when they are resurrected Israel will know their error.

The two witnesses begin prophesying against the person at the very start of the 7 years, when the person has been anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah.

The person does not become the beast until around three years later, and after he has been rejected by the Jews as continuing as their King of Israel, for claiming to be God.

Do You see now, why talking timelines is a waste of time if you do not understand the beasts of revelation rightly? Is my view right, Is your view right? They are all subjective at this point in time. Truth must be arrived at which is the fellowship of the saints. I have one view of the four beasts, you have another which says three beasts. This then influences our two timelines. This is the Problem with Post modernism, and Truth is never arrived at because can only be arrived at where two or three are gathered in his name... Jesus is the Truth, and he will be there, when we gather in his name, not for our own name to defend our own point of view and be insulted if we are proved wrong. This sort of interaction is rare in the World and especially in the church today, and is the reason why we have hundreds of different denominations, and churches out there.

As for the Peace in Jerusalem when Gog Magog war takes place, Read Zech. 12 -14 and this will explain this time period well. With the Saints of the church out of the way now, Satan's focus and attacks turn to Israel, But Israel will be spared from this last ditch futile effort from the Usurper to depose God's Holy People, After this comes the full repentance of Israel when they receive "Him whom they have pierced" as their Messiah. This time of mourning likely coincides with the 40 days of mourning from ELUL 1- Yom Kippur, the last Yom Kippur, as Jesus Takes away the sins of the People of Israel. Then Tabernacles is a feast of celebration followed by a time of consecration which is finished 75 days later at the culmination of the feast of dedication (Hanukkah). From that point on the feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated by all nations of the earth (Zech. 14)…. 

Remember, Jesus WINS. Satan is defeated. God will fight the Battle of Armageddon with the chosen and faithful army riding with him. The Blood of bulls and goats is only a covering for sin (Atonement), Jesus Blood takes away the sins (Hebrews 10:1-4)

Read especially Zech. 14. As this is speaking of the Day of the LORD. This might help you to understand that the great battle of Gog Magog/ Armageddon occurs shortly before Israel repents.

14:2 speaks of Jerusalem being ravaged, This being the last wrath of God towards the people of Israel...

14:3 THEN He will go and fight against those nations...

14:4 his feet will stand on the mount of olives, splitting the mountain in two and creating a valley that reaches AZAL...

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.... 

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. (See Zech. 13:1)

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. This is the culmination of the final week.

14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This Picture in Zech. 14  discusses the very end of the final week, and this is the final war, the GOG MAGOG WAR, The War of ARMAGEDDON. This war does not come at the middle of the week, but shortly before the end of the week, God allows Israel to be attacked and the cities ravaged, and then he rescues them. If I were to put a time frame on this, the armies come in the summer, and attack, and then the LORD intervenes shortly before ELUL 1, There is forty days of mourning followed by celebration (Mourning turned to Joy) and then Completing the consecration... Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24) 

This is how I see it because I distinguish between the beast of rev. 13, and the beast of rev. 17, But you do not. Which forces you to put the battle of Gog/Magog in the middle of the final week, rather than at the end as Zech. 14 does. So that is why I suggested we  discuss that before we talk timelines. As The timelines will always be at odds if you have the beasts wrong.

Edited July 28, 2019 by dhchristian

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Everything about the Gog-Magog invasion against Israel ends in the text with Ezekiel 39:16, summarizing the preceding verses of how they will clean the land.

Then it skips 7 years, between the lines, to Ezekiel 39:17-20, to the Armageddon feast.    There is no direct explanation of this in the text.

This is the type of stuff you have to add to make your timeline work. 

[douggg]

18 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This is the type of stuff you have to add to make your timeline work. 

I am doing it to help explain it to you.   It is very easy to compare Ezekiel 39:17-20 to Revelation 19:17-18 to see it is talking about the same thing.

18 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Do You see now, why talking timelines is a waste of time if you do not understand the beasts of revelation rightly? Is my view right, Is your view right? They are all subjective at this point in time.

Ezekiel 38-39 is not subjective, as the basic framework for any time line.   1,2,3.   feast on Gog's armies, 7years, a feast on another set of armies.    

 

Ezekiel 39: 4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

followed by...

Ezekiel 39: 9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

followed by...

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I am doing it to help explain it to you.   It is very easy to compare Ezekiel 39:17-20 to Revelation 19:17-18 to see it is talking about the same thing.

Not disputing this. We are disagreeing on the passage in Ezekiel 38-39 containing one war or two wars. I say it is one war at the end of the final week, You say it is two wars one at the beginning up to 39:16, which is before the final week. And then the rest of Ezek. 39 is another Gog war at the end of the seven.

Now technically, there are two GOG wars, but one is not at the beginning of the final week, as there is also a Gog war described in revelation after the thousand years are ended, and this time the armies come not from the north, but from the four winds, all over the earth. I Also concede that there may be a short war before the final week (Psalm 83 war) that gives impetus the covenant with many, But this is not the GOG war. So here lies our disagreement. Correct?

So the verse you use to support your position is that Israel will be using the weapons as fuel for seven years (39:9), and you assume this is referring to the seven year final week, But nowhere in that passage is this implied. This seven years could extend into the millennial reign of Christ as well, so this is not a proof text for this, but an assumed proof text, in other words you are carrying your own understanding into this text of how the timeline should work. There is a lot of this around in eschatology circles, and to get to the truth we need to wade through a lot of these preconceptions. That goes for Myself as well, for I learned one way in Sunday school, and in college to view eschatology, and I had to go back to square one when I saw the inconsistencies in that view. Even now I struggle with these preconceptions because they are so ingrained in us as facts.

--------------------

In My church growing up we were taught that we were the church of Philadelphia, and that we did not need to worry about things like eschatology because we were to be raptured out of here before all this began. Then they proceeded to give us their standard fundamentalist outline of eschatology, Some parts good, and other parts not so good. For me the turning point came when I was shown by  the Holy Ghost, that we are all living in the Laodicean age, and that we are all Laodiceans. Taking this message to heart was not only life changing, but also changes your whole view of eschatology. You realize that the whole Philadelphian thing is born in pride, and escapism, and is the product of a church living at ease with the world. And You see that their timelines and concepts such as the "tribulation saints" are severely flawed. It is only when The LORD gives you the eyesalve that you then begin to see the full scope of the unveiling of Jesus in Revelation. Only then that you begin to see the structure of God's plan. Only then will you see how the Trumpets are acts of God's mercy to bring people to repentance, because he does not wish that any should perish, and that he unlocks the seals so as to revive the church before the day of Christ, and He brings wrath on the wicked because he is a Just God.

Once you see these things, you see the role of the church, both the overcomers and the apostates, and how they pan out. You see the plan of God for Israel, and how this whole final week is about them. You see The Hand of God in all of these events, and Know The sovereignty of His will, and that God wins, and there is nothing the adversary can do to stop that try as he might. This then gives you a peace that surpasses understanding, and Joy that strengthens us in the face of any adversity we may be called to face. Then you will rightly begin to divide the revelation, and see what is there for the church, and what is there for Israel, and why there are four beasts, and not three, and who that fourth beast is, You see when the redemption of the church is, and you see the timeline that is TRUE, and not based on the teachings of men. But without eyesalve, we cannot see.

I have said it before here, but I cannot begin to describe the Beauty of the book of Revelation, it is a masterpiece painted by the hand of the great artist and creator. It is not some text to be studied in the way we study arithmetic or chemistry, But a Painting being painted before our eyes that is alive and vibrant. The Only response is to cry out "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, is the Lord God almighty"! May He be glorified.

 

   

 

[douggg]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Not disputing this. We are disagreeing on the passage in Ezekiel 38-39 containing one war or two wars.

We are?    No "we" haven't, you have, because I don't refer to Gog/Magog as the Gog/Magog .war, but event.

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I say it is one war at the end of the final week, You say it is two wars one at the beginning up to 39:16, which is before the final week. And then the rest of Ezek. 39 is another Gog war at the end of the seven.

Well, let my clear that up right away.    I have not been calling Gog/Magog a war.    I may have called it a war when repeating your words of calling it a war.   I don't recall.

I call it the Gog/Magog "event", because it doesn't show Israel doing any fighting.   God supernaturally destroys Gog's armies.     God may use other nations as part of the destruction, but it isn't said outright in the text.     So I call it the Gog/Magog event, not war.

I also call it an event because it has the 7 years following, and 7 months following - as part of being an event.

And I don't say war of Armageddon, but Armageddon, although it is the kings of the earth who assemble their armies to make "war" on Jesus.

So "I" have not been saying 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 wars.

And the so-called Psalms 83 "war" is not my words, but those of bible commentators who called it that.

So saying that there are 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 wars is not any part of my argument.    The Gog/Magog event is in the bible.    Armageddon is in the bible.     And Psalms 83 is in the bible.     And the final rebellion of Satan, and inclusion of Gog-Magog is in the bible.   I don't call any of those "wars".

In the red horse second seal, peace will be taken from the earth, implying nations fighting nations during the 7 years once the illusion of "peace and safety" is shattered.    There could be dozens of armed conficts, wars, going on during the time between nations.

So to say there is an issue of two or one Gog/Magog "war" is really not the difference between us.     The difference is that I view the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38/39 as not being the reference to Gog and Magog in Revelation 20.   

The Revelation 20 of Satan's rebellion to deceive the nations to attack Israel, is not the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38/39, that's what "I" saying.

I am not making any arguments on how many "wars" there are.       God destroys both attacks supernaturally.     There's no war going on Revelation 20:8, nation fighting nation.

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Also concede that there may be a short war before the final week (Psalm 83 war) that gives impetus the covenant with many, But this is not the GOG war. So here lies our disagreement. Correct? 

I am of the view that the nations listed in Psalms 83 are likely part of the Gog/Magog attack on Israel, in Ezekiel 38/39.   However, it could turn out to be a separate event.    I am not adamant about that point.

The covenant with many, that by wide margin, most consider to be a peace plan - I don't hold that view at all.    

I view the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years, will be a big speech by the Antichrist from the temple mount that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever.    Confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant.    Reinacting as Moses did in addressing the assembly of the nation in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, and Moses making it a requirement of all future leaders of Israel to do the same on a 7 year cycle.    

It will not be a peace plan.

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

So the verse you use to support your position is that Israel will be using the weapons as fuel for seven years (39:9), and you assume this is referring to the seven year final week, But nowhere in that passage is this implied.

It does not say in the text of Ezekiel 39:9 that the 7 years in that verse is the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.      But it has to be the same 7 years, because of 1,2,3

1. feast on Gog's armies, Ezekiel 39:4

followed by  

2.  7 years, Ezekiel 39:9

followed by

3.   feast on other armies, Ezekiel 39:17-20,  obviously matching Revelation 19:17-18

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This seven years could extend into the millennial reign of Christ as well, so this is not a proof text for this, but an assumed proof text, in other words you are carrying your own understanding into this text of how the timeline should work. T

Not it cannot because of 1,2,3.   Even if you don't think the 7 years are the Daniel 9:27 seven years, it will not alter the 1,2,3 order, of what God has declared.     

If you put the 7 years beginning in the millennium, "3." must still follow.    And that feast Ezekiel 39:17-20 is nowhere in the millennium.     And is not the event of Revelation 20:8 because it says afterward in Ezekiel 39:21  And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.     Impossible to be at the end of the millennium.    No feasts taking place in Revelation 20.

There is zero chance of the Ezekiel 39 framework being any other time except right before the millennium begins.    The 7 years are fixed to be between the destruction of Gog's armies and the feast on the other armies in Ezekiel 39:17-20, which that feast obviously matches the feast in Revelation 19:17-18.

1. feast on Gog's armies, Ezekiel 39:4

followed by  

2.  7 years, Ezekiel 39:9

followed by

3.   feast on other armies, Ezekiel 39:17-20,  obviously matching Revelation 19:17-18

__________________________________________________________________

Your (and everone else's)  end times timeline must be built based on the 1,2,3 framework order of Ezekiel 39 which is fixed in concrete.    Best wishes. (It is not my desire nor intent to be or sound combative.  If I am, my apologies.)

Edited July 29, 2019 by douggg

[dhchristian]

Just now, douggg said:

It does not say in the text of Ezekiel 39:9 that the 7 years in that verse is the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.      But it has to be the same 7 years, because of 1,2,3

1. feast on Gog's armies, Ezekiel 39:4

followed by  

2.  7 years, Ezekiel 39:9

followed by

3.   feast on other armies, Ezekiel 39:17-20,  obviously matching Revelation 19:17-18

Please, take no offense in this, but you need to learn how to read prophecy. One verse, one paragraph can speak about both advents of Christ and something that occurs in the near future of that prophecy. Micah 5 is  one example, where it discusses Jesus being born in Bethlehem, and then jumps to the second advent. Another example is the two creation accounts in Genesis 1, and 2, which is probably more relevant to the mistake you are making interpreting Eze. 38-39.

In Gen. 1 we have the creation of man, and in Genesis 2 we have the creation of man... some have come to the conclusions these are two creations, meaning God messed up the first time... or they have used this to promote Gap theory of creation, and what not. When reading this however, this added discussion adds detail to that event in the previous passage. It is not two EVENTS, but one event, only the second passage adds more detail to the first. The same is true of Eze. 38-39. 

Let's also look at where Gog is located. In the North, and the nations allied with him are not the ones right next to Israel, but further away from Israel, Persia, Turkey, Russia etc. Well if these nations were planning an attack on Israel, would not those closer nations likely jump on board such as Syria, Jordan, Egypt etc. Or did something happen to them where they are unable to join this alliance? Notice that Psalm 83 describes these nations... Notice also that Israel will expand its borders from the Euphrates to the river of Egypt, and this will happen before this final week. What happens to cause this? These nations that have opposed or at best tolerated Israel will not cede land to Israel for no reason... Right? (see Isa. 27:12) This regathering of Israel and its expansion begins when Christ comes for the church.  

[douggg]

 

8 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Please, take no offense in this, but you need to learn how to read prophecy.

Please address the issues and not me.  

16 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Let's also look at where Gog is located. In the North, and the nations allied with him are not the ones right next to Israel, but further away from Israel, Persia, Turkey, Russia etc. Well if these nations were planning an attack on Israel, would not those closer nations likely jump on board such as Syria, Jordan, Egypt etc. Or did something happen to them where they are unable to join this alliance?

You are making an argument of the Psalms 83 nations could be separate from the Gog/Magog event.    Fine.    I am not adamant about it, either way.

It does not change the 1,2,3 order of the Ezekiel 39 frame work.

24 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Notice also that Israel will expand its borders from the Euphrates to the river of Egypt, and this will happen before this final week. What happens to cause this? These nations that have opposed or at best tolerated Israel will not cede land to Israel for no reason... Right? (see Isa. 27:12) This regathering of Israel and its expansion begins when Christ comes for the church.  

Well, it is not in Psalms 83.    Whatever timeline of events or scenarios you come up with, it has to fit the 1,2,3 framework of Ezekiel 39.