Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I have never liked the ESV.    Nonetheless, the half of the week in yellow above would be the second half, not the first half.    It doesn't say first or second half in the text, but the confirming of the covenant is what starts the 7 years, not ending the sacrifice and offering.

Wouldn't that change up your timeline of events?

I am not a Huge fan of the ESV either, But it translates the word chetsiy as Half of which is the way this word is translated 108 times in the KJV, and only used 9x as midst or middle of. So Let's transpose that translation of that word in the KJV and see how it reads. See Parenthesis below.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and (for half of the week) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The fact that this then is confirmed by Jesus in Matthew 24 :14-15, that the abomination (The act) marks the beginning of the end, and you see that this timeline has some basis in fact.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is also confirmed by Paul in 2 thess. 3ff, except he uses stronger language as to deception.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus clearly Puts this act committed at the beginning of the week. Daniel 9:27 now does as well if you translate the word the way it is translated in most other scriptures, and 2 thess. 2 Places revelation and action at the beginning calling them "first". 

Now, there are no question marks, no contradiction and the all passages speak in accord with each other. There is no need to say things like "Matthew 24 applies to Israel only", or "The revealing of the man of sin is different from the abomination", Which the act of he commits in 2 Thess. 2 is clearly an abomination to the LORD.

  

[douggg]

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The fact that this then is confirmed by Jesus in Matthew 24 :14-15, that the abomination (The act) marks the beginning of the end, and you see that this timeline has some basis in fact.

"The act" of the person going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God is not the "abomination" of desolation in Matthew 24:15, nor in Daniel 12.

"The act" is the "transgression" of desolation spoken of in Daniel 8:12-13.

Differently, although closely related, the image of the beast made to be worshipped is the "abomination" of desolation.   Basically, it will be a statue image.

Both the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation take part in the middle part of the seven years (not the exact midpoint).

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Jesus clearly Puts this act committed at the beginning of the week. Daniel 9:27 now does as well if you translate the word the way it is translated in most other scriptures, and 2 thess. 2 Places revelation and action at the beginning calling them "first".  

No, it is in the middle part of the 7 years.

2Thessalonians2, Paul is saying that the Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord, does not happen until the falling away, and the transgression of desolation act.

The act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.   The Day of the Lord actually extends forever. 

We don't have enough information to pinpoint the exact day during the seven years the act takes place.

Differently, but a short time later, the abomination of desolation triggers "the great tribulation".

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How it will work, is that after Gog/Magog, the little horn enters the middle east with his EU military, as peace keepers.

The Jews will think the person is the messiah arrived, because he opposes the Gog/Magog movement, which one of the characteristics of the messiah in Jewish thought is that he fights the battles of God in defending Israel.

The person is anointed the King of Israel, and he makes the big speech from the temple mount to begin the 7 years.

The Jews, Israel and the rest of the world will be saying peace and safety because they will think that they have entered the messianic age.

About three years later, the person goes bad and thinks he has achieved God-hood.    He commits the transgression of desolation act.    Ending his honeymoon as the King of Israel, with the Jews.

God in Ezekiel 28:1-10 has the person killed for his audacious act.   He find his soul in hell, before God in disdain for him kicks his soul out of hell, bringing him back to life.    He sits up in his casket back alive as everyone watches (speculation by me).

And the false prophet has the image made of him and it is placed in the temple, which triggers the great tribulation, with 1335 days left until Jesus returns to end it.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then the end shall come of this present age, after the gospel has been preached to all the nations - which has taken place over the past 2000 years.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

"The act" is the "transgression" of desolation spoken of in Daniel 8:12-13.

Daniel 8 is a prophecy of the rise of Alexander the great, and his eventual dividing of his kingdom among his four generals this chapter points to the abomination of Antiochus Epiphanes. The 2300 days being fulfilled to the day by Antiochus, and his eventual death on Kislev 24. This passage is the reason why many modern scholars think the book of Daniel was written at this time because of its startling accuracy. (I Do not, But some scholars do).

To try and force this prophecy into Revelation is a mistake, Yes the Abomination of Antiochus can be a TYPE of the end time abomination, and you would do well to read up on this, and you will find that the Abomination, the act was the first thing he did, followed by a time of abominations that lasted 2300 days. This, being part of where I arrived at the conclusions I have about the Act of the abomination being first, and that act involved him declaring himself God. The Name "Epiphanes" means "God manifest", which he gave himself at the outset of His Rule. Here is the account from the 1 Maccabees 1:22-26

 And he went up to Jerusalem with a great multitude.

²³ And he proudly entered into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, and the table of proposition, and the pouring vessels, and the vials, and the little mortars of gold, and the veil, and the crowns, and the golden ornament that was before the temple: and he broke them all in pieces.

²⁴ And he took the silver and gold, and the precious vessels: and he took the hidden treasures which he found: and when he had taken all away he departed into his own country.

²⁵ And he made a great slaughter of men, and spoke very proudly.

²⁶ And there was great mourning in Israel, and in every place where they were.

All of this happened over the course of 3 days. The setting up of the statue of Zeus and the demand to worship it (He equated himself with Jupiter/Zeus) Was all a part of this. 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Both the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation take part in the middle part of the seven years (not the exact midpoint).

So, Like I said I disagree with this conclusion for the reasons stated above.

 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

The act triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.   The Day of the Lord actually extends forever.

No, The act triggers the time of abominations, aka the great tribulation The day of Christ is when the beast is Killed, and the chosen and the faithful are raptured. These are the Plague phase of the final week, the purpose of plagues is to cause repentance, But Like Pharaoh, they can also cause the wicked to harden their hearts. This is why the 2 witnesses are part of this first half of the week, because they bring plagues upon the earth as well. 

 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

How it will work, is that after Gog/Magog, the little horn enters the middle east with his EU military, as peace keepers.

There are two Gog Magog events, one happens at end of the final week, and the other at the end of the millennium when Satan is loosed. There may be a short war before the final week begins, known as the Psalm 83 war, But even that is debatable, but we do know the birth pangs involve wars and rumors of wars, but not the Gog Magog war. I have heard this a couple of times now and have no clue as to why this started, as scripture is clear when the Gog Magog wars occur. Can you explain where this idea comes from?

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

God in Ezekiel 28:1-10 has the person killed for his audacious act.   He find his soul in hell, before God in disdain for him kicks his soul out of hell, bringing him back to life.    He sits up in his casket back alive as everyone watches

I Do not believe in the Mortal Wound Theory for the antichrist. The text clearly says one of the heads was wounded, but the beast remained alive. The wound to the head was healed by the workings of the FP. What this is like saying is that America died when Katrina Hit new Orleans and destroyed that state. Yes, Louisiana was destroyed, But the U.S.A remained a country and had power. Eventually New Orleans and Louisiana were restored to life again. 

Look at it this way, The false prophet causes the IMAGE of the beast to come to life. The image of the beast is like the statue of Zeus which Antiochus placed in the temple in Jerusalem. Imagine that coming to Life, and people forced to worship it. 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

No, The act triggers the time of abominations, aka the great tribulation

The act triggers the time of desolation.    The image made of the beast and placed in the temple triggers the great tribulation.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

The day of Christ is when the beast is Killed, and the chosen and the faithful are raptured.

The beast will be destroyed, by being cast alive into the lake of fire, not killed.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

This is why the 2 witnesses are part of this first half of the week, because they bring plagues upon the earth as well. 

The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years.

When the little horn prince who shall come person, stands on the Temple, freshly anointed as the King of Israel, he will make the big speech that begins the 7 years.

That same day, the two witnesses begin their 1260 days of prophesying, warning the Jews what is going to happen.    That's how they will know to flee when the image of the beast is placed in the temple.

The two witnesses warnings will come to pass on day 1185 of the 7 years.

The Jews begin fleeing, while the two witnesses battle the beast, giving them cover by the plagues.      On day 1260, the beast overcomes the two witnesses and kills them.    The window for assisted fleeing, closed.

3.5 days later the two witnesses ascend, on day 1263.5, leaving 1256.5 days (called 42 months) that the beast will rule the earth unimpeded by the two witnesses.

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Look at it this way, The false prophet causes the IMAGE of the beast to come to life. The image of the beast is like the statue of Zeus which Antiochus placed in the temple in Jerusalem. Imagine that coming to Life, and people forced to worship it. 

Before the image comes to life, the image of the beast is made first and placed in the temple on day 1185.    It will be a plain inanimate statue, made by the peoples of the world, (Revelation 13:14).    

That the people of the world make the image themselves is important to note, because it will seem a huge miracle when the false prophet later brings life to the image.

Everyone is told to worship it, the abomination of desolation.   The Jews begin to flee out of Jerusalem into the mountains.

After the two witnesses are killed, and leave this world when they come back to life and ascend - the 7th trumpet sounds.

And God starts dismantling Satan and his angels mystical kingdom, Babylon the Great, taking the nations of the world away from him.

That process takes place over the time, times, half times that Satan will have left after being cast down to earth in Revelation 12.

After being cast down, Satan will incarnate the lifeless image, in a big miracle display by the false prophet, deceiving everyone that somehow the false prophet had the power to bring the image to life.

Satan, incarnating the image of the beast, will effectively be worshiped by all them who worship the image of the beast.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Edited July 28, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

There are two Gog Magog events, one happens at end of the final week, and the other at the end of the millennium when Satan is loosed. There may be a short war before the final week begins, known as the Psalm 83 war, But even that is debatable, but we do know the birth pangs involve wars and rumors of wars, but not the Gog Magog war. I have heard this a couple of times now and have no clue as to why this started, as scripture is clear when the Gog Magog wars occur. Can you explain where this idea comes from?

The thinking about a Psalms 83 war preceding the Gog/Magog event became popularized by bible commentator Bill Salus.    The thinking is that the countries listed in Psalms 83 have a common border with Israel.  And they will make a war with Israel, before Gog/Magog.

While the countries involved in Gog/Magog do not have a common border with Israel, making an outlying circle of nations.      And those nations carry out the Gog/Magog event.

It may be possible two separate events, but I don't think there is necessarily a separate war before Gog/Magog.

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Another highly popularized idea is the covenant confirmed for 7 is a peace treaty or peace plan between Israel and it's middle east adversaries.

There may be a peace plan as such, like the current in the news Trump plan, but no peace plan will be the covenant in Daniel 9:27.    What Trump's plan, if not another following, could do however, is amplify the condition of Israel living in peace in Ezekiel 38, right before Gog/Magog attacks.

Your timing is off on Gog/Magog.   Gog/Magog is right before the 7 years begin, and the end of the 7 years is in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Edited July 28, 2019 by douggg

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Your timing is off on Gog/Magog.   Gog/Magog is right before the 7 years begin, and the end of the 7 years is in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This clearly is a Gog Magog war after the millennium is up

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev 16: 14, 16) 

This is pointing to the great war at the end of the final week.

[douggg]

24 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This clearly is a Gog Magog war after the millennium is up

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev 16: 14, 16) 

This is pointing to the great war at the end of the final week.

Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog

Followed by the 7 years

Ending at Armageddon

Followed by the 1000 years

Ending with Satan' last rebellion, including the Gog/Magog nations.   But not the Ezekiel 38-39 event.

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

The beast will be destroyed, by being cast alive into the lake of fire, not killed.

Then there is a contradiction in scriptures, because 2 thess. 2:8 says, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Which is speaking of the day of Christ. 

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. ( Rev 19:20)

If there is a contradiction in the Word of God, the contradiction is in our understanding of the Word of God. This is one of the rules that I live by when studying scripture. This contradiction needs more information for us to solve.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Here we see that the Dragon, the beast and the false Prophet are spirits of devils in habiting men. The Host bodies of these being destroyed, they go to the kings of the earth, and later these spirits are thrown alive into the lake of fire. But the Spirit that is the Devil, that inhabited the body of the dragon, is chained in the bottomless pit for a thousand years and then cast into the lake of fire.

 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

Now the contradiction is gone.