The seven heads and the harlot atop them

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

First,  the beast is a kingdom.  Its the same 4th kingdom of Daniel 7.  The time stamp is John's day in which he lived.   He says plainly that the beast IS NOT.  But he also said that this kingdom WAS.  This also means that it once existed,  but now,  IT DOES NOT EXIST.   That's the 1st reason why the beast is not Rome. 

Hi Du Puppers,

The first beast in Revelation 13 represents both a king and his kingdom, agreed, which I view as the leader of the EU and the EU.    The EU is the end times version of the Roman Empire.    The composite makeup of the beast indicates that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU will have control over the land mass of all of the former historic kingdoms of the Babylonians, the Medes-Persians, and the Greeks.

Differently, the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17, the beast represents only a person.

The terms "was" and "is not" in Revelation 17:8 applies to persons, not kingdoms.   It is the same phrase convention used to describe Jesus in  Revelation 1:4.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The second is because he says that the "kingdom of the 10 horns" have not received any kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.   I.e., they do not form/claim/lambano,G2983, their kingdom until the beast/ kingdom is on the scenes of world history.   And their kingdom is of a very short duration with the beast,  as the 7th kingdom.   Notice what it says in v.17. 

The kingdom of the 10 horns is end times.    It is not until the latter stage of their kingdom that the ten leaders are in place.

I get that from Daniel 8:23, talking about the little horn person as the king of fierce countenance.   "Their" kingdom (of the transgressors which would be referring to the ten kings and little horn person) is the EU.    The EU is not in its final stage of development yet, i.e. the EU's latter time.    It is one of the things to watch for.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

"They give THEIR KINGDOM unto the beast ".    Go back and re-read that part of Daniel 7 where it says that "the 4th beast is the 4th kingdom upon the earth".  The beast is a kingdom,  not a king.    Granted,  a kingdom must have a king to be a kingdom.   But there are 4 kings..."The 4 beasts are 4 kings that arise from the earth(the arah/ground)."  Now read v.17 again.  

In Daniel 7, the four beasts represent both kingdoms and kings, agreed.   The same applies to Revelation 13, to the first beast.     But not for the beast in the bottomless pit, which uses the same term convention as applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:4, as I mentioned above.

The four kings and their kingdoms in Daniel 7 are the four most notable kings of those kingdoms.   Three of the four kings and kingdoms are actually "historic" to us.    The four kings are:

Nebuchadnezzar - Babylonian

Cyrus - Medes/Persians

Alexander - Greek

End times arch villain - Roman

That the fourth beast (the kingdom) in Daniel 7 will be given over to the eternal flame is that when Jesus returns, that unified governing body known as the EU "project" among European idealists will no longer be allowed., ever.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 We also know,  from Daniel 7, that this 10 horned kingdom is under the guiding hand of the little horn.   And we also know,  from Daniel 7 and Rev 13, that the little horn dies [body given to the burning flame].

We also know that the little horn person, heads toward the middle east with his kingdom's strong army in Daniel 8:9 from a location north and west of Israel.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Let's get back to our initial point, " What is the purpose of Rev 17?".  To show the judgment of the whore.   We already decided that the whore is Jerusalem,  a city full (in John's day)  of abominations and filthy fornication,  i.e., spiritual adultery against God.

The whore is not Jerusalem, but the mystical invisible kingdom of Satan and the fallen angels overshadowing the earth.    Which that kingdom has influenced the RCC church which sits on many waters, and it's headquarters is in Rome, the city of the 7 hills.

When the person becomes the beast and claims to be God, it will be in direct conflict with the RCC's core belief that Jesus is God.   Which for that reason, the ten leaders of the EU, which although Europe has historically been in bed with the RCC, will destroy the Vatican, carrying out God's judgment on some of the claims of the Popes, Mariology, and the like.

In Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, and:

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, douggg said:

But there are not 7 prior kings of the bottomless pit to make the beast the 8th king of the bottomless pit.

 

It doesn't say that, you infer it....It says he is OF THE 7 and is an 8th......I gave you both ways that it fits. He is a King of the bottomless pit AND he was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region. So each King was a part of a Beast....so is this Demon. All of that Roman Emperor stuff is just WAY OUT THEIR FANTASY brother, as I have told you umpteen times. 

 

22 hours ago, douggg said:

 Apollyon is a angel.   The terms "was" and "is not" does not apply to angels.   It applies to someone who can die.  The beast in the bottomless pit, therefore, is not Apollyon.  

 

It applies to Apollyon here...he WAS over the Mediterranean Sea Region.....he IS NOT {he's in the Pit} yet HE IS.....He will be placed over the Region again. No one dies, that is just you not seeing the Beast [7 Headed] for the Figurative Beast he is...thus when the Church Age "KILLED THE BEAST" for 2000 years with NO Israel, and a Church that can't be overcome by Satan/gates of hell, you missed that clue brother. 

22 hours ago, douggg said:

 Apollyon is a angel.   The terms "was" and "is not" does not apply to angels.   It applies to someone who can die.  The beast in the bottomless pit, therefore, is not Apollyon.  

 

No Snake is a Beast....it represents POWERS over Israel.

22 hours ago, douggg said:

I think we have been over this before, your term "Beast Kingdoms" is self generated.    There is no mention of Satan being a 9th king of any sort.

 

Your Roman Emperor stuff is self generated....The Beast Kingdoms are obvious. 

22 hours ago, douggg said:

So why bring it up?   I am not making any claim about any 8th kingdom.  Nor 7th kingdom.  Nor 6th kingdom.   Nor 5th kingdom.

 

So you/we/Church can understand he's a Demon Spirit....he's an 8th but there is only 7 Kingdoms !! That should make it an easy problem to solve, except we overthink things. You say he comes back from the dead....just not true brother.

22 hours ago, douggg said:

 The 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 are kings, not 7 kingdoms.    The beast is the 8th king, not 8th kingdom.      

 

Yes they are, God REDUCED THEM to Kings that have fallen from 7 Kingdoms, we know who they are.

22 hours ago, douggg said:

 The 7 kings and the 8th king are kings of the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 in the text, fourth kingdom.

 

No they are not brother. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Revelation Man

[douggg]

43 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

1. When Dan 2:44 says that "in the days of these kings", it is referring to the kingdom of the 10 toes?  A or D?

agree.

43 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

2. The kingdom that is set up at that time is the kingdom of God,  as per the 7th trumpet? 

agree.   But I want to make a comment on the 7th trumpet sounding verses in Revelation 11:15.    The text says "are become".   15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That is denoting a process to take place - which is namely to begin dismantling Satan and his angels mystical kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great, overshadowing the earth.      Included also, the judgment on the beast's kingdom of the EU, bringing it to destruction.

The dismantling takes place over the course of the second half of the seven years.   It starts with the war in the (second) heaven with Satan and his angels cast down to earth, to have only a time, times, half time left.

43 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

3.  The kingdom of God,  as per Q#2, is set up in the "middle" (not necessarily meaning  the exact middle)  of the final 7 years?  A or D?

Disagree. (on the timing)   For the reasons stated above.   A process has to take place first, dismantling Satan's kingdom.

When Jesus Returns, on the last day of the 7 years, the Kingdom of God will be setup, and be the ruling Kingdom over all the nations of the earth.   The saints returning with Jesus to be Kings and priests in that Kingdom.

43 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

4. The kingdom that the saints consume in Daniel 7:26-27 is the kingdom of the beast and not the KOG?  A or D?

Agree.     The saints return with Jesus, when the kingdom of the beast is given its final blow.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

11 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No Snake is a Beast....it represents POWERS over Israel.

Well, there was no Israel in existence in Genesis 3.     Since Satan is not crawling on his belly in the dust, it is apparent that the serpent (snake) was used by Satan.    What would have been the motivation for the serpent, to do so?

The serpent (snake) was a beast of the field.

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Beasts of the field seems to me to be referring to being out in the open meadows, such as cattle.

[douggg]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

What you have is the kingdom of the 10 horns,  existing before the little horn rises.   Daniel 7 says that the little horn rises AMONG the 10 horns,  and not after. 

Yes, the kingdom of the 10 horns, has existed in stages of development before the ten kings come to power and the little horn.

The EU began, not as the EU, but as a vision.

1946  Winston Churchill calls for a "kind of United States of Europe" in a speech at Zurich University.

1957   Treaties of Rome establish the European Economic Community (EEC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom).

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It later just became known as the European Community, EC

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1985  European Council in Luxembourg agrees to amend the Treaty of Rome and to revitalise integration by drawing up a Single European Act.

1990  European Council held in Rome launches two Intergovernmental Conferences, one on Economic and Monetary Union, the other on Political Union.

1992  February: Maastricht Treaty on the European Union is signed, leading to creation of the euro, and the "pillar" structure of the European Union:

So the EU is the most recent development of the kingdom that in its' latter stage will become the kingdom of the ten kings and the little horn person.     The name may change from being called the EU, I don't know.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

There are only 10 horns,  not 11.  If the little horn rose after the 10, it would say that there were 11 horns

The ten kings may be the one's who select the person to be the leader of the EU.     Three of them may not support the person, and he removes them from office, once he gets in power     We don't know exactly right now, it will be evident at the time.

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

A beast is a kingdom.   We only have 4 beasts arising from the earth, and not 5. 

In Daniel 7:17, the angel giving the explanation refers to the four beasts not as coming out of the sea, but as coming out of the earth instead - saying that they are four kings.    There is no 5 kings (nor kingdoms) in the prophecy - agreed.

But when coming out of the earth, the four beasts represent four kings, not kingdoms, based on what the angel said.

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

And John tells us that it is the 2nd,  THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH! 

The 2nd beast in Revelation 13 is not a King, nor is a Kingdom.    He is a false prophet, a person.

__________________________________________________________

Regarding the three beasts of Daniel 7 loosing their dominion, it just means that the nations of those kingdoms will not be ruling any way they feel.     Jesus will be ruling the nations will a rod of iron, and they won't be going to war with each other.

And the nations that are judged to be goats,  governments will be replaced.

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

But the beast existed as a kingdom,  at some point in time,  prior to John's day,  not our day.   The beast encompasses the 10 horn kingdom,  right.   What is John's reference point of time in regards to when the beast was not and before the 10 horned kingdom existed? 

Well, that (highlighted in yellow) is where you are (respectfully) making a mis-interpretation of the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a.    The beast in that verse is a person, not a kingdom.

The kingdom of the ten horns is end times, and is still in development to have that sort of government of ten leaders and one leader over them.    That's what we need to watch for over in Europe.  We are not there yet.

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You have failed to address my question about the perspective of time that John is speaking from.   Imho, you are not answering this question because you do not have a consistent perspective of time.   Let me give you the three that John gives us.

I was not aware of any particular question of yours that I was/am evading.

 

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

1. The woman is (and has and will) reign over the kings of the earth. 

2. The beast that WAS  , (now) IS NOT. 

3. The 10 horn kingdom has not arisen.

1.  The woman is associated with Babylon the Great.    Babylon the Great is mystical kingdom (that is, it is not a nation, like Russia, or England, or the United States) of Satan and his angels.

The woman has immoral relations with the kings of the earth.   From a pratical standpoint, one specific is the relationship between the Popes, the Vatican, and the leaders of the nations of the world, especially in Europe.

2.  The beast that was and is not and is in the bottomless in pit, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit (as a possessing spirit) - is the Genesis 3 beast which was used by Satan to beguile Eve and caused man to fall into sin.  

3. The ten horn kingdom was not around in John's day and is end times.  It will be the EU in it's final form.

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Because the common interpretation of Daniel 7 is that the little horn rises AFTER the first 10 (I hold to the word AMONG,  to mean along with)  then this perspective of time tells us that it is BEFORE the 7th king of Rev 17 arises. 

In Daniel 7 it is referring to the initial appearance of the person bible prophecy wise.     The ten kings and the a little horn come to power essentially at the same time, to address your concern over the word among in Daniel 7:8, as opposed to the word after in Daniel 7:24.

Although we are not given specifics,  I think the EU will reorganize into the ten leader executive branch with one leader over them.    The ten leaders will be elected from the ten voting districts of the EU, and in turn they select the one leader of the EU.    This of course is all speculation, as no-one knows the exact specifics of how the EU will arrive in its final form.

When the person becomes leader of the EU, he is the 7th of seven Julio-Claudian family kings of the Roman Empire.

He is not the beast of Revelation 17:8 "b" at that point in time.   Revelation 17:8 "a" is about the ancient person, the Genesis 3 beast.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet [not in John's day but end time] ; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. [once the person becomes the beast, they turn their EU kingdom over to him, as dictator.   Being dictator does not happen until the second half of the 7 years.]

as the little horn - selected, democratic system, before the 7 years begin.

as the beast - dictator, dictator system, during the second half of the 7 years

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I.e., the beast that ascends from the B.P. (The 8th), does not come on the scene  until after the demise/ death of the 7th.

Da Puppers, Revelation 17:8 is not referring to one person only.   There is the ancient person currently in the bottomless pit as disembodied spirit.      No-one is going see that person in physical form, like if I were looking at you and vice versa, when he ascends out of the bottomless pit.

The other person is the end times little horn, who will be seen by the whole world, killed and afterward come back to life.   That's what they will be in wonderment about.    It will appear as though the person has overcome death - which will be his draw to everyone to do the same, as long as they worship him.

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

So,  when we apply your view that this beast (Rev 17) is a person and not a kingdom,  you must explain who this "person" is that WAS,  but now IS NOT.   You now have 2 persons to deal with.

Exactly.    The person currently in the bottomless pit is Genesis 3 beast that beguiled Eve, used by Satan.    

The person that everyone will see killed and come back to life is the end times person.

The end times person will become possessed, empowered by the spirit that comes out of the bottomless pit.

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I.e., the beast that ascends from the B.P. (The 8th), does not come on the scene  until after the demise/ death of the 7th. 

Da Puppers, the beast in the bottomless pit will not be visible when he ascends.    He is a spirit.      Revelation 17 is divided into two parts separated by a colon.     The first part "a" is talking about an ancient person.   The Genesis 3 beast.

The second part "b" is talking about the end times person.     It is all in one passage to show the connection that will take place between the two.      It will be a possession by, not a re-materialization of the person in the bottomless pit.

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Question:  A beast with 2 horns does not represent a kingdom? Because this beast has 2 horns, it can only mean one of two things.  

1. The false prophet is the king of this kingdom of 2 horns representing 2 nations,  OR,

2. He is a co-ruler (2 horns)  with another over this 1 kingdom.   

It says why he has the two horns -they are like a lamb.    Jesus is the Lamb of God, preaching salvation.    The false prophet second beast will be preaching a mimicking salvation, eternal life, by worshipping the first beast person.  

But the second beast speaks like a dragon; i.e. the message of salvation by worshipping the first beast, for eternal life will be a lie from Satan

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Or, perhaps, since you believe that this beast that ascends is a person,  that this person, that was and now is not (inn John's day), Who this "person" was.   Is this why you refer to this beast that was not as being Caesar? 

I am not referring to the beast that was and is not, and in the bottomless pit - as being Caesar, or a Caesar.

I am saying the 7 kings, in Revelation 17:10 are of the Julio-Claudian Caesar family.   Caesar is a family name.

1. Julius Caesar

2. Augustus

3. Tiberius

4. Caligula

5. Claudius

6. Nero, the last of that line historically speaking.

7.  little horn person, end times 7th king.   Let's just arbitrarily call him "Joe".

Joe is killed during the 7 years, and comes back to life to become 8th king of the Julio Claudian family line.       The beast spirit of the ancient person ascends out of the bottomless pit to possess Joe - yielding Joe the label "the beast", as well.    Joe rules the last 42 months of the seven years as the beast.

The 7 kings = 7 kings of the Caesar family

The 8th king = 8th king of the Caesar family + being possess by the beast (a spirit) that asends out of the bottomless pit.

_____________________________________________________

Joe is the 7th king, as the little horn person.   Joe is killed in the middle of the 7 years, and comes back to life as the 8th king, and Joe is then possessed by the beast (a spirit) that ascends out of the bottomless pit.

Edited July 27, 2019 by douggg