Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards

[iamlamad]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:13 PM, douggg said:

Working backwards,

Revelation 20:1-3......Satan chained and cast into the bottomless pit

Revelation 19:11-20....Jesus returns

Revelation 12:14.........Satan persecutes the woman, a time, times, half times

Revelation 12:12 ........Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and sea

Revelation 12: 9-10...Satan cast down to the earth

Revelation 12:7-9......War in the second heaven

Revelation 11:18.........Time of God's wrath has come

Revelation 11:15.........The seventh angel sounds his trumpet

Revelation 11:14.........Time has come for the third woe

Revelation 11:11..........The two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven

Revelation 11:7...........The beast kills the two witnesses, at the end of their testimony

Revelation 11:3...........The two witnesses begin their 1260 days of prophesying

Daniel 9:27.................The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years.

Conclusion:  The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the seven years.

Wrong conclusion: work forward, not backward. 11:11 is inside a parenthesis that is OUT OF ORDER, not in John's chronology.

11:1-2  the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies and the city will then be trampled for the NEXT 42 months.

11:3  the two witnesses SHOW UP and will then prophecy or witness for the NEXT 1260 days

                      11:4-13 are a parenthesis

11:14-15 the 7th trumpet sounds, marking the exact midpoint of the week -  and the moment the man of sin enters the temple.

12:6  those in Jerusalem see the man of sin "abominate" as He enters the Holy of Holies (where ONLY the High Priest can go, and him only once a year) and declares HE is the God of the Jews. They immediately begin to flee.

Michael has been waiting for that 7th trumpet for that is his cue to go to war in the heavens. Satan is cast down and goes after those who flee, then turns to go after those who love Jesus.

 

[douggg]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong conclusion: work forward, not backward. 11:11 is inside a parenthesis that is OUT OF ORDER, not in John's chronology.

11:1-2  the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies and the city will then be trampled for the NEXT 42 months.

11:3  the two witnesses SHOW UP and will then prophecy or witness for the NEXT 1260 days

                      11:4-13 are a parenthesis

There's not a parenthesis in the text.    Are you using the KJV?

You have made a wrong assumption - by saying the two witnesses show up after, or at the same time of, the 42 months of the nations controlling the outer court.

The 42 months of the nation controlling the outer court end when Jesus returns.

At the end of the 42 months, it will be at the end of the great tribulation.   The Jews will have fled into the wilderness at the beginning of the great tribulation.

The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 you have before the war in heaven and the time, times, half times of Revelation 12:14.    Therefore, you have the 1260 days, near the end of which the Jews will have fled into the mountains, as the first half - as I do.

Those 1260 days are the same 1260 days of the two witnesses.

__________________________________________________________________________

All you need to do is match the timeframes.

 

First half

events of  the 1260 days* - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

(then in ) second half

* followed by events of the 3 1/2 days** - Revelation 11:7-13

** followed by events of the 42 months - Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2

[events of the time, times, half time - run concurrently with the 42 months - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14]

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

I am astonished that you said that I said what I did not actually say. This is not good, I particularly think it's terrible.  I said in my post above who the 7 kings are, from the first to the seventh, being the first of the list Pope Paulus I (not Evaristus as you did think), and Paulus I (Paulus Primus) reigned from the year 757a.C to 767a.C, precisely from 29 May 757a.C – 28 June 767a.C - (10 years, 30 days).    I did not said what you say I did say. 

Okay, I misunderstood what your wrote.  I went back, read your post again, and realized why.   But no reason to prolong.   I made a mistake in reading your post.

What does a.C mean?    I am familiar with BC and AD and CE.

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Paulus I  (Paulus Primus) -  29 May 757a.C – 28 June 767a.C - (10 years, 30 days) 
Paulus II -  ( Paulus Secundus) - 30 August 1464a.C  – 26 July 1471a.C  - (6 years, 330 days)
Paulus III - (Paulus Tertius) - 13 October 1534a.C  – 10 Nov 1549a.C  - (15 years, 28 days) 
Paulus IV - ( Paulus Quartus) 23 May 1555a.C  – 18 Aug 1559a.C  - (4 years, 87 days) 
Paulus V - ( Paulus Quintus) 16 May 1605 – 28 Jan 1621 - (15 years, 257 days) 
Paulus VI - (Paulus Sextus) 21 June 1963 – 6 Aug 1978 - (15 years, 46 days) 

You seem to be focusing in on the name Paulus.   Paul I, II, III, IV, V, VI.

Regardless, those came long after the first century, which according to Revelation 17:10,  five of the seven kings were already fallen - i.e. dead, at the time, the first century.

 The Paul series of Popes is not the series of 6 kings in Revelation 17:10.  Nor is the 7th king to come, which I think you are eluding to = to be Paulus VII.

4 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Please, tell me :
How could or can the "clan of Caesers"  be linked or associeted with these Holy Scriptures quoted above?  Will be? Will be? Sorry, I will never believe in what you said because has not any sense in my view.  Are they - the "clan of Caesers" -  the Beast that carries the Woman?  See, the Woman did not exist in the time of Júlio Caesar.   

The seven kings did not carry the woman.   The seven heads were on the beast.   The beast was carrying the woman.    The beast is scarlet colored and is Satan.    The seven heads - represent seven mountains the place where the woman sits.    But the heads were not "carrying the woman".

Focus just on the inscription.    It is like a brand of ownership in cattle.

The inscription on the woman's head did exist at the time of Julius Caesar, and all the way back before the creation of the earth because it is the brand of Satan, his kingdom.

The inscription is "mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth", the brand of the mystical kingdom of Satan and the rebellious angels who joined him.

Which there have been a multitude of abominations of the earth long before the RCC/Vatican, like Baal worship.

The RCC/Vatican woman is an "element" of "mystery, Babylon the Great", that came up later, branded with that inscription.    And is associated with Rome.

The seven kings and the ten kings are associated with the Roman Empire.    I gave the list of kings that fit the description of the five fallen, one is.      The seventh to come will be the little horn person.

Edited August 16, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The 7 heads are 7 hills on which the Woman - the RCC - sits;  and are also 7 kings, a serie of seven Popes nicknamed Paulus, among others 265 Popes, of several series of nicknames or fake names. Their native names are others, they change their native names and use a fake names or nicknames as do the prostitutes.

Oseas, you are making an irrational leap that the place where the woman sits - represented by seven mountains - Rome.    

That it extends to mean the woman sits on the seven heads, as well.

That is not the connection.   The connection is that the woman is the RCC/Vatican residing in Rome.

And that there are seven kings associated with that city (but not the woman), which five had already fallen, back in the first century.    Which the Popes were not around at that time.

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Satan is not the colored Beast, absolutely. Satan is the Red Dragon, a former Cherub, the son of perdition.

There are three time stamps of the beast in Revelation.

1. Revelation 17 - the first century

2. Revelation 12 - with the full seven years presented in that chapter, Revelation 12:6+ Revelation 12:14

3. Revelation 13 - the last 42 months of the seven years.

In Revelation 17, the actual beast is in the bottomless pit.   John wasn't able to see into the bottomless pit, and had to be told by the angel of the beast which once was and is not being there.     So Satan is seen instead, who will be the power behind the beast when he comes out.

In Revelation 12, the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit, with the 7 years at it's beginning.   So Satan, the red dragon, is seen instead.    The 7 heads have their crowns signifying that the prophecy of the seven kings complete at the time the 7 years begin.  That is to say king seven has come to power - the little horn person.

In Revelation 13, the actual beast has come out of the bottomless pit, possessing the end times person who will be mortally wounded and come back to life.     Satan is not seen in lieu of the actual beast like in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12.  Because the actual beast has actually come out of the bottomless pit in Revelation 13.

Instead, of seeing Satan(the red dragon, scarlet colored beast),  the visual of the beast is a composite makeup the lion, bear, leopard to signify with 42 months left in the seven years, the end times Roman Empire the kingdom of the beast, the EU, will have gained control of all of the territories of the three former historic kingdom.

It has nothing to with the Popes/Papacy.   

Edited August 17, 2019 by douggg

[iamlamad]

On 8/15/2019 at 2:50 PM, douggg said:

There's not a parenthesis in the text.    Are you using the KJV?

You have made a wrong assumption - by saying the two witnesses show up after, or at the same time of, the 42 months of the nations controlling the outer court.

The 42 months of the nation controlling the outer court end when Jesus returns.

At the end of the 42 months, it will be at the end of the great tribulation.   The Jews will have fled into the wilderness at the beginning of the great tribulation.

The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 you have before the war in heaven and the time, times, half times of Revelation 12:14.    Therefore, you have the 1260 days, near the end of which the Jews will have fled into the mountains, as the first half - as I do.

Those 1260 days are the same 1260 days of the two witnesses.

__________________________________________________________________________

All you need to do is match the timeframes.

 

First half

events of  the 1260 days* - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

(then in ) second half

* followed by events of the 3 1/2 days** - Revelation 11:7-13

** followed by events of the 42 months - Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2

[events of the time, times, half time - run concurrently with the 42 months - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14]

I don't know what you go by: I go by John's own chronology. I guess you know, John did not use punctuation marks at all.  Punctuation was not invented until LONG after Christ. We discover punctuation by studying the text. There IS a parenthesis in Rev. 11:4 - 11:13. You may not believe it now, but one day you will.

Where is John in his narrative in Rev. 11:3 where John is first introduced to the two witnesses? We can tell from 12:6 that He is just before the midpoint of the week. In fact, if you can believe it, he is just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That event will stop the daily sacrifices.

Did you not notice in matthew 24 that jesus skipped over the first half and began talking about the week at the abomination that will divide the week? It is almost the same in Revelation.  John did not delineate the beginning of the week as such. But we can find that beginning from study. The week begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

The truth is, ALL MENTIONS of the 3.5 year period of time in Revelation is for the last half of the week.

I know you won't believe this now - but after the rapture you will.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Did you not notice in matthew 24 that jesus skipped over the first half and began talking about the week at the abomination that will divide the week? It is almost the same in Revelation.  John did not delineate the beginning of the week as such. But we can find that beginning from study. The week begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

First you say that John did not delineate the beginning of the week.    Then you turn around and say (in John's account) the week begins at the 7th seal and first trumpet.

Most of Revelation is about the arch villain of the end times in the role of the beast.     For most of the first half the person is in the role of the Antichrist.    It is in the role of being the Antichrist that he begins the week.

Little horn, then the prince who shall come, then the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast.

 

Look at my chart of when the person becomes the beast (noted as brought back to life, now the beast)...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by douggg

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

First you say that John did not delineate the beginning of the week.    Then you turn around and say (in John's account) the week begins at the 7th seal and first trumpet.

Most of Revelation is about the arch villain of the end times in the role of the beast.     For most of the first half the person is in the role of the Antichrist.    It is in the role of being the Antichrist that he begins the week.

Little horn, then the prince who shall come, then the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast.

 

Look at my chart of when the person becomes the beast (noted as brought back to life, now the beast)...

...

 

1 hour ago, douggg said:

First you say that John did not delineate the beginning of the week.    Then you turn around and say (in John's account) the week begins at the 7th seal and first trumpet.

Most of Revelation is about the arch villain of the end times in the role of the beast.     For most of the first half the person is in the role of the Antichrist.    It is in the role of being the Antichrist that he begins the week.

Little horn, then the prince who shall come, then the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast.

 

Look at my chart of when the person becomes the beast (noted as brought back to life, now the beast)...

 

 

 

 

First you say that John did not delineate the beginning of the week.    Then you turn around and say (in John's account) the week begins at the 7th seal and first trumpet.   John did NOT write, "this event begins the week" or "this event will end the week." We can only determine these things from study.

Sorry, I disagree with everything in your chart: it does not follow scripture correctly understood. You and I will continue to disagree on these points.  1185 is not in scripture - it comes from faulty human reasoning.  The man of sin killed is also human reasoning. It is ONE (1) of the heads, which are empires with kings, that receives a deadly wound. Did you not notice what happened to Iraq (Babylon) and its "king?" Without a doubt, "Babylon" is one of the heads that was at John's time fallen.

Edited August 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[douggg]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I disagree with everything in your chart: it does not follow scripture correctly understood. You and I will continue to disagree on these points.  1185 is not in scripture - it comes from faulty human reasoning.  The man of sin killed is also human reasoning. It is ONE (1) of the heads, which are empires with kings, that receives a deadly wound. Did you not notice what happened to Iraq (Babylon) and its "king?" Without a doubt, "Babylon" is one of the heads that was at John's time fallen.

In Isaiah 14, the King of Babylon is a code name for Satan.

Babylon is not one of the 7 heads.       Mystery, Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth - is the mystical kingdom of Satan and the rebellious angel - which Satan is the king of that kingdom.

Saddam is not the person.    For several reasons.   One is the person is a Jew, to be likened as an abominable branch, descended from David.

When the actual person, forthcoming, is killed, his soul goes to hell - before being cast out of the grave (figurative for being brought back alive).

His body though will never be buried.    He comes back to life, as everyone watches, his mortal wound miraculously healed.

Isaiah 14:

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.*

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

 

* Isaiah 14:18 is talking about the big memorial tombs of former kings.   

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

18 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You, douggg, you SAID IN ANOTHER POST the religious and blaspheme FIRST Beast "is a king".  

Wrong.  You are mistaken.

No I am not mistaken.    The first beast is Revelation 13 is the 8th king Revelation 17:11, having been of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10.   

And the mortally wounded but recovered head is king 7.    King 7 is the little horn.

The path to his destruction is...

little horn > prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast.

the revealed man of sin, God has killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10.    The person finds his soul in hell in Isaiah 14, but his body still not buried.     His soul will be cast out of the grave by God in disdain for the person.    Coming back to life, the person is then the first beast in Revelation 13. 

That the person is a king is Isaiah 14:18-20.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.*

 

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

 

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. [he is not going to get a big memorial tomb]

 

* Isaiah 14:18 is talking about the big memorial tombs of former kings.

 

The person, the revealed man of sin, will be killed, but the time between being killed and coming back to life is short - because his body will not be buried and laid to rest in a fancy memorial tomb made for him.   That's what verses 18-20 indicate.

 

Once he comes back to life, in Revelation 13, he is the beast.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

13 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Not true. It is false.  Rev.17:v.3
v.3 - So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured BEAST (the Beast was not in the bottomless pit / abyss), full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

QUESTIONS
Which are the names of blasphemy of this satanic Beast? Which are the 7 heads of the Beast revealed as BEING 7 mountains, and which of the 7 heads will be wounded unto death?  
 

Satan is seen in lieu of the actual beast because the beast does not ascend out of the bottomless pit until there are 42 months left in the 7 years, to possess the end times person.

The connection between Satan and the actual beast, it appears, goes back to the garden of eden - that beast - which allowed Satan to use him to deceive Eve and thus Adam,  as part of a deal that he would be ruler of the earth over mankind.

There had to be some incentive that motivated the beast in the garden to want to deceive Eve, and thus Adam, to eat from the forbidden tree.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by douggg