Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards

[douggg]

13 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No true. It is false. John had already seen the bottomless pit, brother. Here goes what John had seen therein the bottomless pit:  "I, John, saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to HIM  (TO THIS WANDERING STAR) was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit." 

John in Revelation 9, did not see into the bottomless pit.   He saw the falling angel (Satan) open it.   And what came out of the bottomless pit.

Edited August 18, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You don't answer the questions.  For we to identify who the MAN is, that is the actual Beast, you must tell us which is the several names of blasphemy upon his 7 heads.   Please, tell us, these NAMES of blasphemy in his 7 heads reveal who him is, understand?

The name of blasphemy upon the heads.    The name of blasphemy is I am god.    The Julio-Claudian Caesars all claimed to be god (s).

Go to Ezekiel 28:1-10...   prince of Tyrus is a code name for the revealed man of sin.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

 

When the Antichrist goes into the temple in 2Thessalonians2;4, committing the transgression of desolation act, sitting in the seat of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood, i.e "a" god as it says in Ezekiel 28:2 above, God is angered and has the person killed for the act.   That is what is what Ezekiel 28, 1-10 is about.

I show that he is killed on my chart below.

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Which are the 7 heads of the Beast revealed as BEING 7 mountains, and which of the 7 heads will be wounded unto death?

Your question is flawed.

It does not say the mountains are wounded unto death.

_________________________________________________________________________________

When the 7th king (7th head on the beast) is mortally wounded but healed, the time between being mortally wounded and healed is short - because his body is not buried.

Isaiah 14:

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.*

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. [he is not going to get a big memorial tomb]

* Isaiah 14:18 is talking about the big memorial tombs of former kings.

The person, the revealed man of sin, will be killed, but the time between being killed and coming back to life is short - because his body will not be buried and laid to rest in a fancy memorial tomb made for him. That's what verses 18-20 indicate.

Once he comes back to life, in Revelation 13, he is the beast.

 

[douggg]

27 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Who is this seventh king? Yeah, who is this MAN? The questions are: Which are the 7 heads of the Beast revealed as BEING 7 MOUNTAINS, where they are located? and which of the 7 heads (or the 7 mountains) will be wounded unto death? 

The 7th king of Revelation 17:10 will be the little horn person.  The person has not emerged yet, so an exact name of the person is not known at present.

The seven heads also represent the place where the woman sits, featuring 7 mountains - Rome.

In Revelation 13, the mortally wounded head that recovers is the little horn person.

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

But no one of the Julio-Claudian Caesars is the MAN of sin, the son of perdition, that was revealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Apostle Paul.

The little horn person will be descended from the Julio-Claudians.     He will also be descended from King David; the person likened as an abominable branch in Isaiah 14:19.

19 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What you are saying is mere history of the world of the Devil, and his spirit uses his messengers trying to confound the people of God with his devilish astuteness. I know perfectly this satanic strategy of the Devil.

The historians made it all up about the Julio-Claudians?

[douggg]

9 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The Scriptures say one of the 7 heads that are 7 mountains will be wounded unto death. It is impossible your spirit to deceive me, I know him and its pitfalls. 

The scriptures indicates one of the seven kings will be wounded unto death.    Not one of the seven mountains.   The seven mountains collectively are the place the woman sits, it does not single out each of those mountains separately from each other.

"It is impossible your spirit to deceive me, I know him and its pitfalls."    You are making a not so subtle false accusation.  I say Jesus is Lord.   Jesus is God come in the flesh.   I pray every day, thanking Jesus for coming into this world to save me.

If you continue with your misinterpretation, it is you misleading yourself.   It has nothing to do with me, nor anyone else here holding a interpretation different than your own.

 

9 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains.

Oseas, that is only part of the explanation of what the seven heads represent.   The other part is the seven heads are 7 kings.     It is not saying 7 kings on the seven mountains.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

WHO IS THIS WOMAN? Who is this WHORE that Scripture indicates is sat upon 7 heads - 7 mountains?
Geografically the world is divided into 7 parts. God did it that way.

Oseas, the 7 mountains don't represent the 7 continents.      I don't know what presence the RCC would have in Antarctica, anyway.

The 7 heads represent a group of seven mountains where the woman sits - Rome.     It is talking about the Vatican, headquarters of the world wide RCC.

Differently, although closely related,  that the woman the RCC is present among all peoples of the world is by her sitting on many waters.

We are told of her sitting upon many waters in Revelation 17:1

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Then explanation of what the waters represent...

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The inscription on the woman's head, however, does not refer to the woman, but the mystical Kingdom of Satan and the rebellious angels - which have impacted the beliefs and practices and claims of the woman, i.e. the Vatican /RCC.

The woman is branded with Satan's kingdom.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by douggg

[iamlamad]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:13 PM, douggg said:

Working backwards,

Revelation 20:1-3......Satan chained and cast into the bottomless pit

Revelation 19:11-20....Jesus returns

Revelation 12:14.........Satan persecutes the woman, a time, times, half times

Revelation 12:12 ........Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and sea

Revelation 12: 9-10...Satan cast down to the earth

Revelation 12:7-9......War in the second heaven

Revelation 11:18.........Time of God's wrath has come

Revelation 11:15.........The seventh angel sounds his trumpet

Revelation 11:14.........Time has come for the third woe

Revelation 11:11..........The two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven

Revelation 11:7...........The beast kills the two witnesses, at the end of their testimony

Revelation 11:3...........The two witnesses begin their 1260 days of prophesying

Daniel 9:27.................The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years.

 

Conclusion:  The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the seven years.

All through Revelation God intruduces John to events at the time they will happen when they happen. 

What is JOhn's timing in Rev. 11? Don't just guess; study and show yourself approved!  We can work backwards, but let's word backwards from Rev. 12:6: the "woman" fleeing into the wilderness.

Matthew 24:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Therefore Rev. 12:6 is perhaps two seconds after the abomination.  WHEN in the 70th week timeline is the abomination? Do we know? Yes.

Dan. 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This verse tells us that an event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week.  What then will be the cause of the stopping of the sacrifices? For Antiochus it was when he entered the temple and set up his favorite idol. For the future, it is going to be when the man of sin enters the temple. Just him entering must cause the sacrifices to stop: the temple will have to be cleansed with the ashes of a Red Heifer.

Therefore, the man of sin will enter the temple, and those in Judea will see it (it will be broadcast) and they will flee. It is the exact midpoint of the week. (The Hebrew for "midst" means to divide in half. John proves this is an exact division by mentioned the 1260 days twice, and the 42 months twice.

We can be sure then, that verse 12:6 is a second or two after the midpoint: we must account for reaction time.  For something as important as the midpoint, we can be sure God will mark that midpoint so we can know. We KNOW it must be in chapters 11 throught 13 where the 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time is found. Each mention is for the last half of the week, in spite of Douggg's theories. If we back up from 12:6 looking for a marker of some kind, we back up to the 7th trumpet.

I am convinced that the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark this important point in heaven.

Questions to ponder: is Rev. 13:6  -  42 months after 13:5? I have never heard anyone even suggest such a thing. Most will agree that verse 5 is the STARTING POINT for the 42 months of countdown to the end of the week - to the 7th vial.

Question: is 12:15 -  3.5 years after verse 14? Again, no one has ever suggested such a thing. Most will agree that verse 14 is the STARTING POINT for the 3.5 years of countdown to the end of the week - to the 7th vial.

Question: is verse 12:7  - 1260 days after 12:6? Of course it is not. All people believe that 12:6 is the starting point for the 1260 days countdown to the end of the week - to the 7th vial.

Readers, are you following me?

Question: is 11:3  - 42 months after 11:2? Ridiculous! Of course not. All people recognize that this is the START of the countdown to the end of the week - to the 7th vial.

Readers take careful note: in these 4 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time, each is the START of a countdown that will take the event to the end of the week.  Why then would anyone even imagine that the 1260 days of the two witnesses would be the first half?

Second point: John used parentheses. it is a fact. Here is perhaps the easiest one to spot:

Rev 20:4  ...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁵ (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

Notice that the "first resurrection" is  referencing that they live and reigned with Christ for a thousand  years, and NOT with "the rest of the dead."  John did not have these nice parenthesis brackets to use: they were not invented then.

There is another parenthesis in chapter 11.

 

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

⁽⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In other words, 11:1-2 is just days before the midpoint, the two witnesses show up right after, just days before the midpoint, then the 7th trumpet sounds marking the midpoint. This parenthesis is John taking us down a side journey of the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY - as a parenthesis.  These verses are NOT IN John's chronology.

Readers notice: the two witnesses SHOW UP right here where God introduces them to John, in 11:3. What TIME is it?

Note  that all the other countdowns end at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. But these testify for 1260 days (equivalent to the last half) but lay dead for 3 1/2 days. This tells us that they BEGIN their testimony just 3.5 days before the midpoint (marked by the 7th trumpet) - testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead those 3.5 days,  and are then resurrected with all the rest of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial.

In other words, their 160 days almost  parallels the 1260 days of those fleeing; but the two witnesses begin 3.5 days before.  (the fleeing actually a second or two after.)

We can also guess that 11:3 is the man of sin coming to Jerusalem with His Gentile armies. He must arrive in Jerusalem because in 3 1/2 days he is going to enter the temple and declare HE is the God of the Jews. My guess is that he arrives just 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet that will mark the midpoint - and the two witnesses (probably Enoch and Elijah - the two men who never died) show up then because he showed up.

 

Readers, did you notice a great earthquake when the two witnesses are raised? It is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial that ends the week.

My conclusion then is that ALL FIVE countdowns are for the last half of the week.  The 42 months of trampling will start first, then the 1260 days countdown of testifying will start next. Then the 1260 days of fleeing and the 3.5 years of feeding and protection. the 42 months countdown of authority will begin last. Notice that the Beast and False prophet are not caught until chapter 19  - some unknown time after the 7th vial has ended the week.

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:16 PM, douggg said:

Oseas, the 7 mountains don't represent the 7 continents.      I don't know what presence the RCC would have in Antarctica, anyway.

The 7 heads represent a group of seven mountains where the woman sits - Rome.     It is talking about the Vatican, headquarters of the world wide RCC.

Differently, although closely related,  that the woman the RCC is present among all peoples of the world is by her sitting on many waters.

We are told of her sitting upon many waters in Revelation 17:1

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Then explanation of what the waters represent...

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The inscription on the woman's head, however, does not refer to the woman, but the mystical Kingdom of Satan and the rebellious angels - which have impacted the beliefs and practices and claims of the woman, i.e. the Vatican /RCC.

The woman is branded with Satan's kingdom.

 

 

I disagree: Daniel tells us that at the end, there will be ten nations, and of the ten, the Antichrist Beast will take out three, leaving seven. I suspect these are the same seven in the end times, of which the first five were ancient empires who were gone by the time of John: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Egypt is still there. Assyria is now Syria, Babylon is now Iraq. Persia is now Iran. Greece is still Greece. It would be easy to pick out 5 more Muslim nations to make it the ten nations Daniel was talking about.  The Beast will take out three: who knows which.

Sorry, but this is simply NOT ABOUT the Vatican!  

Just believe John: the "woman" is "that great city" the city of Jerusalem. Do you not understand that the Beast and False Prophet will deceive THE ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem?

[iamlamad]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:16 PM, douggg said:

Oseas, the 7 mountains don't represent the 7 continents.      I don't know what presence the RCC would have in Antarctica, anyway.

The 7 heads represent a group of seven mountains where the woman sits - Rome.     It is talking about the Vatican, headquarters of the world wide RCC.

Differently, although closely related,  that the woman the RCC is present among all peoples of the world is by her sitting on many waters.

We are told of her sitting upon many waters in Revelation 17:1

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Then explanation of what the waters represent...

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The inscription on the woman's head, however, does not refer to the woman, but the mystical Kingdom of Satan and the rebellious angels - which have impacted the beliefs and practices and claims of the woman, i.e. the Vatican /RCC.

The woman is branded with Satan's kingdom.

 

 

I disagree: Daniel tells us that at the end, there will be ten nations, and of the ten, the Antichrist Beast will take out three, leaving seven. I suspect these are the same seven in the end times, of which the first five were ancient empires who were gone by the time of John: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Egypt is still there. Assyria is now Syria, Babylon is now Iraq. Persia is now Iran. Greece is still Greece. It would be easy to pick out 5 more Muslim nations to make it the ten nations Daniel was talking about.  The Beast will take out three: who knows which.

Sorry, but this is simply NOT ABOUT the Vatican!  

Just believe John: the "woman" is "that great city" the city of Jerusalem. Do you not understand that the Beast and False Prophet will deceive THE ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem?