JohnD Posted July 19, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, theElect777 said: I believe in it and Paul proved it. Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Verse 4 explains God chosen us BEFORE the foundation of the world . Verse 5 just flat out uses the word predestine to explain our adoption into Christ. Us = we who believe. Which God foreknew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theElect777 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, JohnD said: Us = we who believe. Which God foreknew. Paul is writing to someone in Ephesus. So I would assume that someone and Paul himself equals "us." And thankfully for all Believers who have accepted Christ, this applies to them which includes "us" (You and Myself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnD said: Us = we who believe. Which God foreknew. The Bible NEVER states that foreseen faith is the basis for ANYTHING. It is THOSE whom he foreknew, he predestined. God set his favourable "knowing" on certain people, before we were created. Besides which, the Bible says that repentance and faith are gifts from God that he does not give to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 8 hours ago, David1701 said: The Bible NEVER states that foreseen faith is the basis for ANYTHING. It is THOSE whom he foreknew, he predestined. God set his favourable "knowing" on certain people, before we were created. Besides which, the Bible says that repentance and faith are gifts from God that he does not give to everyone. Those who he foreknew [would believe in his Son] he predestined that whosoever believes in his Son would not perish but have eternal life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 You are confusing pre-selection with predestination. Heaven is that destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 6 hours ago, JohnD said: Those who he foreknew [would believe in his Son] he predestined that whosoever believes in his Son would not perish but have eternal life... Do you not see that you have had to add your opinion [in square brackets] to Scripture, in order to change its meaning to what suits your doctrine? It is those whom he foreknew, not those whom he foreknew something about. Do you understand the difference? Besides which, the best lexicons (e.g. BDAG) tell us that the word translated "foreknew", when applied to people, means "chose beforehand". This completely scuppers your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,184 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,460 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 20, 2020 On 10/8/2019 at 3:05 PM, Alive said: I suppose this is true in the main. Every soul is different. My path was a bit different. I didn't come to this particular belief through a denominational creed. Anyway, it wasn't until years later that I looked back at my conversion experience in light of 'predestination'. It came over time and knowing Him. I honestly don't understand how believers can not believe that God predestines us. The scriptures are so clear--to me. For some reason, its an argument that has gone on for a long time. This is a mystery to me. Because Scripture is learned in this hermeneutic fashion Isa 28:10 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: KJV and it is true these verses below must agree with one way, one truth, one life Eph 1:11 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: KJV 2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. KJV I am presently studying the realities of satan's effort in thwarting God's desires for we know God says this Matt 24:24 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. KJV Election and predestination are the ways God is using without violating His original design of ones imaged in His Own Self freewilled...(who has told God what to do) for according to this verse satan is able to thwart this 'freely choose aspect' unless God steps in to enforce His Will to that end of whosoever will... Mark 8:34-37 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? KJV when election and predestination is used toward determinism the Gospel is destroyed of purpose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,184 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,460 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, David1701 said: Do you not see that you have had to add your opinion [in square brackets] to Scripture, in order to change its meaning to what suits your doctrine? It is those whom he foreknew, not those whom he foreknew something about. Do you understand the difference? Besides which, the best lexicons (e.g. BDAG) tell us that the word translated "foreknew", when applied to people, means "chose beforehand". This completely scuppers your opinion. foreknowledge itself is encapsulated with that which is known before it is evidenced as... it must be applied to the created aspect to understanding for God does not have time constraints as He simply is in all places, times, without bounds present... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, enoob57 said: foreknowledge itself is encapsulated with that which is known before it is evidenced as... it must be applied to the created aspect to understanding for God does not have time constraints as He simply is in all places, times, without bounds present... I agree that God is not constrained by time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 20, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,184 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,460 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, David1701 said: I agree that God is not constrained by time. then foreknowledge cannot refer to God's will toward determined destiny... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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