Sin, Salvation, Grace..cont'd

[Kabowd]

Since this is really a doctrinal issue..I thought I'd post my responses in this forum. The quotes are taken from this topic.

Kansasdad,

You initially used 3 verses (out of context) to support your doctrine, while avoiding addressing the numerous others which seem to contradict said doctrine. Are you aware that there is tremendous Scriptural support for salvation security? If so, how do you reconcile that the verses which support salvation security far outweigh those which seem to contradict it?

Clearly God will judge us if we continue to live in sin after we have the knowledge of truth, our punishment will be severe.

What about forgiveness of sins?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ~ 1 John 1:9

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." ~ Hebrews 8:12

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Hebrews 10:16-18

Our works don

[Kansasdad]

Since this is really a doctrinal issue..I thought I'd post my responses in this forum. The quotes are taken from this topic.

Kansasdad,

You initially used 3 verses (out of context) to support your doctrine, while avoiding addressing the numerous others which seem to contradict said doctrine. Are you aware that there is tremendous Scriptural support for salvation security? If so, how do you reconcile that the verses which support salvation security far outweigh those which seem to contradict it?

Dear Tess: Please stop doing this!

You start your whole post with an accusation. I did not quote verses out of context. I quoted verses that speak to me, that I felt had some bearing on the subject and If you read my response to Eric I explain why I felt each verse was relevant. It is precisely because posters use little jabs like the one above that the debates turn nasty. Please stop!

Now as I responded to Eric, yes I realize that there are numerous verses that you can quote to support salvation security, but there are also numerous that support losing ones salvation. I will do my best to address each one, but this is not a contest to see which side has more verses. I think all scripture is important, even if there is only one reference to it through out the entire Bible. I would ask the same in return. I have admitted and am still searching for the answer to why these verses contradict each other. So far, and I have read through many, many post on the subject, I have not read any credible resolution the the contradictions. All arguments have fallen flat when scrutinized. Please read that again....ALL arguments have fallen flat from both sides....

You have posted several verses and it will take some time to respond to each one. I will probable take each one or maybe a few at a time, as apposed to trying to respond to your entire post as once.

While I am working on this please look at the verses in Hebrew and the verses in John that Eric and I were discussing. Put them side by side and explain how one does not contradict the other...

God Bless

Kansas Dad

[Kabowd]

While I am working on this please look at the verses in Hebrew and the verses in John that Eric and I were discussing.

[Kansasdad]

Tess these verses are not pulled out of context. Your own post shows this. The context of these verses including the ones you quoted are about our salvation, and the sacrifice Jesus made and the bearing all this has on our salvation. That is the context of the verses. These verses of the Bible are speaking directly to the issue at hand.

Your quote: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Heb. 10:9-18

How do you reconcile that with: Hebrews 10:26

[Kabowd]

How do you reconcile that with: Hebrews 10:26

[Catsmeow]

C. Hebrews 12:1-2  says this:

""Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance th race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

From these verses I learn this:

* The Christian journey is likened to a race...yet it is clear that there are hinderances and "sin that easily entangles us". It does not state that we go back to the beginning each time we sin. We would never make it to the finish that way because we constantly sin. Instead it tells us to persevere, and cast off those things that hinder us. We don't go back to the starting point...we are just "freed up" to carry on in the race as Christ "perfects" us.

If salvation cannot be guaranteed, why send Christ? Why send the Holy Spirit?

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tess, thank you SOOOOOOOOOOO much for this. Man, I've missed seeing you around.

Thank you for posting. I've been needing this revelation so badly lately. This has soothed some deep, spiritual wounds I've been licking lately.

You bless my soul... Cats

[Kabowd]

C. Hebrews 12:1-2

[EricH]

People characterize the position of Eternal Security as once saved always saved. I prefer the designation "perseverance of the Saints". The logical issue as I see it, is that people who hold that you can loose your salvation as a result of works, want to believe that something that was not the cause of our salvation, can be the end of it. Also, those who hold that Hebrews teaches that we can lose our salvation must also hold that once it is lost it cannot be restored.

[Kansasdad]

Quote from Tess:The way I've been taught to understand this is to remember that this was written to the Hebrews (Jews), explaining to them the passing from the elements of Jewish faith to Christ. These passages in particular are warning them about the danger of substituting half-truths for the full truth in Christ. The author teaches that the old Jewish sacrifices had passed and there was no longer that cure for sins. Their only choice was either to take Christ (who had died the sacrificial death for all) or to come into terrible judgment (eternal damnation). This is consistent with the rest of the entire book. In fact, there are verses in 4:4-6 which some interpret to mean the loss of salvation. However, if this is what these verses are teaching...then they also teach that once salvation is lost it can never again be attained.

This is the same argument Eric made and it doesn

[Khristeeanos]

I just can't believe in OSAS because of so many clear warnings given to Christians that they could still end up in the lake of fire.

One of the most obvious is in the aforementioned Galatians.

Galatians 5:19-21

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here we have a clear warning given to born-again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, unable to be plucked from the Father's Hand, Christians.

It says if they live by the sinful nature they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There is only one other place for them - the Lake of Fire.