He shall subdue three kings

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, luigi said:

To magnify oneself, and to exalt oneself is to see oneself in a narcissistic form of grandeur. It is relatively pointless to continue arguing when I have already pointed out numerous inconsistencies with your perspective which I backed up with scriptures, while you continue to assert what I perceive to be your long held dogmas. I keep an open mind, knowing that some of my perspectives will also be wrong, as we are all currently deceived by Satan (Revelation 12:9).

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

Agreed: the man of sin turned Beast will deceive the entire world. But one thing is certain: he is not anyone from Daniel chapter 8. He is someone from Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12. Agreed: the devil has always been a deceiver. He is good at it. Just look at the many denominations and nondenominational churches in the world today: many thinking they alone have the truth but others don't.

Edited September 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[luigi]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed: the man of sin turned Beast will deceive the entire world. But one thing is certain: he is not anyone from Daniel chapter 8. He is someone from Daniel 7 and Daniel 11-12. Agreed: the devil has always been a deceiver. He is good at it. Just look at the many denominations and nondenominational churches in the world today: many thinking they alone have the truth but others don't.

iamlamad, I understand that your dogma about Daniel 8 representing a 2nd century BC event keeps you from acknowledging these events occurring during the end times as the angel Gabriel declares them to be in Daniel 8:17 & 19, but the descriptions of the individual in Daniel 8:11 & 25 and 11:36 who magnifies himself, and the individual who exalts himself and sees himself as God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 are all about the same narcissist during the end times. 

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

[luigi]

Additionally iamlamad, the daily sacrifice and sanctuary that the narcissist casts down in Daniel 8:11 & 13, is the same daily sacrifice and sanctuary he destroys in Daniel 9:26, before setting up a 7 year covenant with many (Daniel 9:27). These events are further corroborated occuring during the end times in Daniel 12:11 in regards to the daily sacrifice and abomination that maketh desolate in Daniel 8:11 & 13 and 9:26-27.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[luigi]

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

iamlamad, I understand that your dogma about Daniel 8 representing a 2nd century BC event keeps you from acknowledging these events occurring during the end times as the angel Gabriel declares them to be in Daniel 8:17 & 19, but the descriptions of the individual in Daniel 8:11 & 25 and 11:36 who magnifies himself, and the individual who exalts himself and sees himself as God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 are all about the same narcissist during the end times. 

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

...keeps you from acknowledging these events occurring during the end times  How wrong you are! OF COURSE a very similar thing will happen in our future, but it will not be done be Antiochus Epiphanes! It will be done by the Little Horn of Daniel 7.  What? You are so fixated on two verses saying the same thing, you can't even imagine two people can do the same thing? What did Solomon say: there is nothing new under the sun; what has been done will be done again.

³ Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now, this is going to set the THEME of the chapter. A ram with two horns, but one horn higher (stronger) than the other. It is history now, but was future when Daniel saw this vision.  You see, the Median Empire came into power first, but Cyrus of Persia soon became stronger (higher) and the Medes became subject to Persia.

⁴ I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel is still writing of Persia, but at the time Persia is gaining power under Cyrus the Great.

⁵ And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Touched not the ground is not literal, but figurtive: speaking of the speed in which Alexander the Great moved East.

• Ellicot's Commentary: Touched not the ground.—An exact prediction of the early conquests of Alexander, all whose movements were characterised by marvellous rapidity. This is expressed by “the wings of a fowl” (Daniel 7:6).
• Benson Commentary:   and he touched not the ground — His marches were so swift, and his conquests so rapid, that he might be said, in a manner, to fly over the ground without touching it. For the same reason, the same empire, in the former vision, was likened to a leopard, which is a swift, nimble animal; and, to denote the greater quickness and impetuosity, to a leopard with four wings.” “He flew,” ...
• Barnes Notes:  "  He seemed to bound along as if he did not touch the ground - denoting the rapidity of his movements and conquests. "
• JFB Commentary: Touched not the ground; therefore called a
•  
• leopard with wings, for he conquered with incredible swiftness in a short time, for in six years’ space he overcame the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the countries round far and near; as if he had but travelled over them, he so came, saw, and overcame them.
• A notable horn between his eyes: this was Alexander the Great,
• The theme has not been expanded to include the king of Greece: Alexander the Great:
• Gill's Commentary: it is remarkable, that the arms of Macedon, or the ensigns carried before their armies, were a goat, ever since the days of Caranus; 
• On the face of the whole earth; all that lay between Greece and Persia, Now Daniel is telling us that Alexander  is conquering everything in his path.
• And touched not the ground; as he went; he seemed rather to fly in the air than to walk upon the earth; with such swiftness did Alexander run over the world, and make his conquests: in six or eight years time he conquered the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the neighbouring nations; 

⁶ And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.  Now Daniel is telling us of WAR between the Goat (Greece) and the Ram (Persia.)

⁷ And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.  Obviously the goat (Alexander the Great) won this battle. (the Battle of ISSUS).

⁸ Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.  Shortly after the Battle of Issus, Alexander died. Within a few years, his vast kingdom was divided up among his four Generals: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus.

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.  Out of "one of them:" that is out of one of the four. It was out of the Seleucus division. He would control the land area of Israel.

• Daniel 11: ²¹ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.  The Seleucus dynasty waxed great under Antiochus Epiphanes.  He hated Israel and killed Jews (the host of heaven): of the stars: (leaders of the Jews).

• Daniel 11:⁸ Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Antiochus had an army, and it seems the army caught the hatred of the Jews from Antiochus. The daily sacrifices were taken away. The Holy of Holies was desecrated. It seemed Antiochus was winning his war against God and God's people.

• Daniel 11:³⁰ For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
• ³¹ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?   In the vision one saint is asking another HOW LONG will Antiochus be prospering against the Jews and against their "truth" of the daily sacrifices?  We know from history what happened: Antiochus sacrificed a pig on the altar for spite, knowing it was an unclean animal: he was "thumbing his nose" so to speak, at the God of the Jews! Of course the daily sacrifices could not resume until the temple was cleansed, but before that could happen, God would have to deal with Antiochus. Notice that this is still under verse 9 above, out of the general Seleucus....one of the four. It has nothing to do with our future.

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Time and time again I find someone who tries to fit this 2300 days into John's time-frame of 3.5 years  - midpoint - 3.5 years. It does not fit. It will NEVER Fit, because it is history: concerning the time Antiochus sacrificed the pig and set up the image of Zeus.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Antiochus was a slick talker and apparently convinced many of the Jews weakest in their faith towards God, to quit fighting and John with Antiochus - probably for money! These verses also speak of "THE HAMMER" Maccabees. ( a group of Jewish rebel warriors who took control of Judea, which at the time was part of the Seleucid Empire. [wikipedia].

Now an angel comes to tell Daniel what it was he just saw: an explanation.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

²⁵ And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

²⁶ And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Note verse 19: the indignation: this in context is what Antiochus was doing, preventing the people from doing ANY PART of Moses law. For example, if a woman took a boy child to be circumcised, and was caught, the child was murdered and hung around the mother's neck with a chain until the body rotted off. Antiochus was doing all in his power to spit in God's face, so to speak.

Note VERY CAREFULLY what comes after verse 19 where "the end" is mentioned: the very end you wish to make future to us: notice what the angel says next: The ram with two horns is to represent the kings of Media and Persia. My friend, this is not future, it is history to us now. Verse 21: the king represented by the horn on the goat is the first king of Grecia: but that great horn was broken: Alexander the Great died: four generals took over. But NONE of the four with Alexander's power.

Now verse 23: "in the later time of THEIR kingdom: WHOSE? Of course in context, the FOUR GENERALS. In the later time of THEIR kingdom Antiochus stood up; he came into power.  The vision of the 2300 days is truth: shut up the vision; it is going to take many days for these things to end. Even chapter 11 mentions "the end."

• Daniel 11: ³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 

Note carefully: it is the very same "end" discussed in chapter 8: it is the end of Antiochus and his attack against the Jews and against God.  The appointed time of "the end" or "the indignation" would be 2300 days - maybe from the day Daniel received this vision. I am not sure of the starting point; only the end where the Daily sacrifices could be restored.

You see, the ENTIRE context of this chapter is about Persia, then Alexanders defeat of Persia, then his death and the four generals that take over - and finally of the little horn that came out of one of the four: Seleucus.

What you are missing: you cannot pull  any verse out of its context. Period and end of story. The context of this chapter is very clear.

Edited September 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

Two stories; two different people; doing the same thing.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

...keeps you from acknowledging these events occurring during the end times  How wrong you are! OF COURSE a very similar thing will happen in our future, but it will not be done be Antiochus Epiphanes! It will be done by the Little Horn of Daniel 7.  What? You are so fixated on two verses saying the same thing, you can't even imagine two people can do the same thing? What did Solomon say: there is nothing new under the sun; what has been done will be done again.

³ Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Now, this is going to set the THEME of the chapter. A ram with two horns, but one horn higher (stronger) than the other. It is history now, but was future when Daniel saw this vision.  You see, the Median Empire came into power first, but Cyrus of Persia soon became stronger (higher) and the Medes became subject to Persia.

⁴ I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel is still writing of Persia, but at the time Persia is gaining power under Cyrus the Great.

⁵ And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Touched not the ground is not literal, but figurtive: speaking of the speed in which Alexander the Great moved East.

• Ellicot's Commentary: Touched not the ground.—An exact prediction of the early conquests of Alexander, all whose movements were characterised by marvellous rapidity. This is expressed by “the wings of a fowl” (Daniel 7:6).
• Benson Commentary:   and he touched not the ground — His marches were so swift, and his conquests so rapid, that he might be said, in a manner, to fly over the ground without touching it. For the same reason, the same empire, in the former vision, was likened to a leopard, which is a swift, nimble animal; and, to denote the greater quickness and impetuosity, to a leopard with four wings.” “He flew,” ...
• Barnes Notes:  "  He seemed to bound along as if he did not touch the ground - denoting the rapidity of his movements and conquests. "
• JFB Commentary: Touched not the ground; therefore called a
•  
• leopard with wings, for he conquered with incredible swiftness in a short time, for in six years’ space he overcame the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the countries round far and near; as if he had but travelled over them, he so came, saw, and overcame them.
• A notable horn between his eyes: this was Alexander the Great,
• The theme has not been expanded to include the king of Greece: Alexander the Great:
• Gill's Commentary: it is remarkable, that the arms of Macedon, or the ensigns carried before their armies, were a goat, ever since the days of Caranus; 
• On the face of the whole earth; all that lay between Greece and Persia, Now Daniel is telling us that Alexander  is conquering everything in his path.
• And touched not the ground; as he went; he seemed rather to fly in the air than to walk upon the earth; with such swiftness did Alexander run over the world, and make his conquests: in six or eight years time he conquered the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the neighbouring nations; 

⁶ And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.  Now Daniel is telling us of WAR between the Goat (Greece) and the Ram (Persia.)

⁷ And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.  Obviously the goat (Alexander the Great) won this battle. (the Battle of ISSUS).

⁸ Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.  Shortly after the Battle of Issus, Alexander died. Within a few years, his vast kingdom was divided up among his four Generals: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus.

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.  Out of "one of them:" that is out of one of the four. It was out of the Seleucus division. He would control the land area of Israel.

• Daniel 11: ²¹ And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.  The Seleucus dynasty waxed great under Antiochus Epiphanes.  He hated Israel and killed Jews (the host of heaven): of the stars: (leaders of the Jews).

• Daniel 11:⁸ Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Antiochus had an army, and it seems the army caught the hatred of the Jews from Antiochus. The daily sacrifices were taken away. The Holy of Holies was desecrated. It seemed Antiochus was winning his war against God and God's people.

• Daniel 11:³⁰ For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
• ³¹ And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?   In the vision one saint is asking another HOW LONG will Antiochus be prospering against the Jews and against their "truth" of the daily sacrifices?  We know from history what happened: Antiochus sacrificed a pig on the altar for spite, knowing it was an unclean animal: he was "thumbing his nose" so to speak, at the God of the Jews! Of course the daily sacrifices could not resume until the temple was cleansed, but before that could happen, God would have to deal with Antiochus. Notice that this is still under verse 9 above, out of the general Seleucus....one of the four. It has nothing to do with our future.

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Time and time again I find someone who tries to fit this 2300 days into John's time-frame of 3.5 years  - midpoint - 3.5 years. It does not fit. It will NEVER Fit, because it is history: concerning the time Antiochus sacrificed the pig and set up the image of Zeus.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

Antiochus was a slick talker and apparently convinced many of the Jews weakest in their faith towards God, to quit fighting and John with Antiochus - probably for money! These verses also speak of "THE HAMMER" Maccabees. ( a group of Jewish rebel warriors who took control of Judea, which at the time was part of the Seleucid Empire. [wikipedia].

Now an angel comes to tell Daniel what it was he just saw: an explanation.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

²⁵ And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

²⁶ And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Note verse 19: the indignation: this in context is what Antiochus was doing, preventing the people from doing ANY PART of Moses law. For example, if a woman took a boy child to be circumcised, and was caught, the child was murdered and hung around the mother's neck with a chain until the body rotted off. Antiochus was doing all in his power to spit in God's face, so to speak.

Note VERY CAREFULLY what comes after verse 19 where "the end" is mentioned: the very end you wish to make future to us: notice what the angel says next: The ram with two horns is to represent the kings of Media and Persia. My friend, this is not future, it is history to us now. Verse 21: the king represented by the horn on the goat is the first king of Grecia: but that great horn was broken: Alexander the Great died: four generals took over. But NONE of the four with Alexander's power.

Now verse 23: "in the later time of THEIR kingdom: WHOSE? Of course in context, the FOUR GENERALS. In the later time of THEIR kingdom Antiochus stood up; he came into power.  The vision of the 2300 days is truth: shut up the vision; it is going to take many days for these things to end. Even chapter 11 mentions "the end."

• Daniel 11: ³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 

Note carefully: it is the very same "end" discussed in chapter 8: it is the end of Antiochus and his attack against the Jews and against God.  The appointed time of "the end" or "the indignation" would be 2300 days - maybe from the day Daniel received this vision. I am not sure of the starting point; only the end where the Daily sacrifices could be restored.

You see, the ENTIRE context of this chapter is about Persia, then Alexanders defeat of Persia, then his death and the four generals that take over - and finally of the little horn that came out of one of the four: Seleucus.

What you are missing: you cannot pull  any verse out of its context. Period and end of story. The context of this chapter is very clear.

Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: As you have stated "OF COURSE a very similar thing will happen in our future, but it will not be done be Antiochus Epiphanes", why would the Lord use so many similar descriptions about the little horn (aka the beast's mouth, the narcissist; aka the abomination of desolation) in Daniel chapters 7, 8, 9 and 11, as well as 2 Thessalonians 2:4, when Antiochus Epiphanes was such a minor player in history, and the entity in Daniel 7, 9, 11, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is going to be such a major player that he is going to take most of the world down to hell with him? How do these two vastly different level entities correlate?

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Touched not the ground is not literal, but figurtive: speaking of the speed in which Alexander the Great moved East.

• Ellicot's Commentary: Touched not the ground.—An exact prediction of the early conquests of Alexander, all whose movements were characterised by marvellous rapidity. This is expressed by “the wings of a fowl” (Daniel 7:6).
• Benson Commentary:   and he touched not the ground — His marches were so swift, and his conquests so rapid, that he might be said, in a manner, to fly over the ground without touching it. For the same reason, the same empire, in the former vision, was likened to a leopard, which is a swift, nimble animal; and, to denote the greater quickness and impetuosity, to a leopard with four wings.” “He flew,” ...
• Barnes Notes:  "  He seemed to bound along as if he did not touch the ground - denoting the rapidity of his movements and conquests. "
• JFB Commentary: Touched not the ground; therefore called a
•  
• leopard with wings, for he conquered with incredible swiftness in a short time, for in six years’ space he overcame the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the countries round far and near; as if he had but travelled over them, he so came, saw, and overcame them.
• A notable horn between his eyes: this was Alexander the Great,
• The theme has not been expanded to include the king of Greece: Alexander the Great:
• Gill's Commentary: it is remarkable, that the arms of Macedon, or the ensigns carried before their armies, were a goat, ever since the days of Caranus; 
• On the face of the whole earth; all that lay between Greece and Persia, Now Daniel is telling us that Alexander  is conquering everything in his path.
• And touched not the ground; as he went; he seemed rather to fly in the air than to walk upon the earth; with such swiftness did Alexander run over the world, and make his conquests: in six or eight years time he conquered the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the neighbouring nations; 

 

Do you not recognize how these commentaries use spin to support their perspective so that they fit their dogma about it representing a 2nd century BC event, which has little relevance in history, and less relevance with the saints?

They also use spin to claim these events are not during the end times, which Gabriel in Daniel 8:17 & 19 states they do represent, and thus in effect they deny God's Word.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Two stories; two different people; doing the same thing.

Two stories of two different people described similarly doing the same thing without clarifying the difference would make the Lord an author of confusion, which He is not.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

Two stories of two different people described similarly doing the same thing without clarifying the difference would make the Lord an author of confusion, which He is not.

The confusion only seems to be on your side. One person did an abomination around 170 BC and the other is still future. How then can they be confused?