Adstar Posted August 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 23, 2019 22 hours ago, Yeshua153 said: You cannot have it both ways, there cannot be predestination (fate),& freewill, because of the definitions, & freewill is only in the bible, relating to offerings, there is only selfwill, to fulfil self, apart from God, which if freewill existed in its worldly form, would also be living without the constraints of God, which is impossible, as God is in control. Yes you can have it both ways.. Because the predestination is based on Gods foreknowledge.. Free will is the ability to make a decision from ones own will.. One can have a will for the will of God or they can have a will in opposition to you.. God knowing the beginning to the End can foreknow what free willed decision each and ever human being will make in regards to His will.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeshua153 Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 83 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 24, 2019 18 hours ago, Adstar said: Yes you can have it both ways.. Because the predestination is based on Gods foreknowledge.. Free will is the ability to make a decision from ones own will.. One can have a will for the will of God or they can have a will in opposition to you.. God knowing the beginning to the End can foreknow what free willed decision each and ever human being will make in regards to His will.. Show me in the bible where you find your freewill, apart from offerings, but self-will is there, for self & sin are our natural ways, that's why we need God's forgiveness daily, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2019 28 minutes ago, Yeshua153 said: Show me in the bible where you find your freewill, apart from offerings, but self-will is there, for self & sin are our natural ways, that's why we need God's forgiveness daily, at least. Joshua 24: KJV 14 "¶ Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. {15} And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." If they had no free will they would not be able to choose on that day whom they would serve... To be able to make a choice between serving the LORD or serving another one Must have the free will ability to do so.. Revelation 3: KJV 20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." One has to have the free will to chose to hear His voice and open the door.. Genesis 2: KJV 16"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: {17} But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Adam and Eve at the very start revealed their free will ability to decide to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. If they had no free will they could never have made this choice.. Deuteronomy 30: KJV 19"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: {20} That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." They needed free will to be able to make this choice to choose Life.. The belief that free will does not exist is a delusion.. Of course free will exists.. Without it there can be no justice.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted August 24, 2019 On 8/22/2019 at 7:45 AM, Yeshua153 said: You cannot have it both ways, there cannot be predestination (fate),& freewill, because of the definitions, & freewill is only in the bible, relating to offerings, there is only selfwill, to fulfil self, apart from God, which if freewill existed in its worldly form, would also be living without the constraints of God, which is impossible, as God is in control. I think you actually can have it both ways. God knew what Adam would do long before he created him, yet he allowed him to make the decision that doomed us from our perspective. In his own perspective it gave him the opportunity to become a man, and elevate man to heights Adam never could. Christ now seated at the right hand of the Father, and all who trust in him seated right with him in the Heavenlys. God’s ultimate will, will always prevail, but man has one responsibility to God, and that is to believe on Jesus Christ. As the Holy Spirit opens the sinners understanding through the Gospel, he or she then has free will to receive the message or harden their heart towards the revealed truth. I think a good illustration of the two sides of one truth is found in Acts Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. You see some rejected the message of their own accord, but some believed as was ordained by God. The problem with Calvinism is they got the whole thing backwards. Romans chapters 9-11 is showing that God who originally chose Israel and hated Esau, has now blinded Israel for the sake of of the Gentiles. Only a small elected remnant of Israelites will believe during this time of the gentiles. Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," Rom 9:26 and, "In the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'children of the living God.'" Rom 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, Rom 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day." Double Predestination among Gentiles is a false doctrine, but making Predestination God simply looking into the future to see who believes is just as bad in my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not me Posted August 24, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 513 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,194 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 3,358 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Adstar said: Joshua 24: KJV 14 "¶ Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. {15} And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." If they had no free will they would not be able to choose on that day whom they would serve... To be able to make a choice between serving the LORD or serving another one Must have the free will ability to do so.. Revelation 3: KJV 20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." One has to have the free will to chose to hear His voice and open the door.. Genesis 2: KJV 16"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: {17} But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Adam and Eve at the very start revealed their free will ability to decide to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. If they had no free will they could never have made this choice.. Deuteronomy 30: KJV 19"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: {20} That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." They needed free will to be able to make this choice to choose Life.. The belief that free will does not exist is a delusion.. Of course free will exists.. Without it there can be no justice.. Very nice, I’ve always like the scripture in Deuteronomy you quoted where God calls both Heaven and earth to testify against the man that says God has not put the choice before man. That to me is a absolute. Therefore any scripture that could be interpreted to say contrary, for me is a wrong interpretation of that scripture. I have always like the statement; “You can’t have a will unless it’s free.” The logic I see in that statement, for me, ends all arguments. ~For I see any interpretation of any scripture that puts any evil into God is a wrong interpretation of that scripture.~ The scriptures that are interpreted to say God has predestinate some for glory and some for hell, puts evil into God. Which, because they put evil into God, I see as not being correctly understood, though the scriptures are valid and true, I just see them as putting evil into God so I don’t believe that there being correctly interpreted. Even though I don’t understand them all. My maxim is as stated; “any interpretation of anything that puts any evil into God is a wrong interpretation of that thing.” I hold true that as far as salvation goes only two things are predestined, the old and the new creation. The old creation is predestined to destruction, the new to life, glory and honor. At the time of departure from this world if one does not have the new birth they are to be condemned because they have not that life that can live in Heaven. For no other reason but they are not in possession of that life that is necessary to make one alive unto God. Another thing that makes me believe in man’s free will is God Himself and His goodness, as you brought forth. For no good being could or would condemn a living being to a wrong doing that was not theirs. That would not be justice. That would be evil, therefore God will not condemn the innocent. Anyways, I think you are on point and may God cause you to continue to grow in Christ, Not me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeshua153 Posted August 26, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 83 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 On 8/24/2019 at 8:37 AM, Adstar said: They needed free will to be able to make this choice to choose Life.. The belief that free will does not exist is a delusion.. Of course free will exists.. Without it there can be no justice.. You would make a good politician, never answering the questions properly, I will repeat myself again, where in the bible apart from freewill offerings, is freewill mentioned? Choose & choice is still selfwill, just as we have self-confidence, self-esteem, self-discovery, self-worth etc. God wants us to crucify self daily Lk9v23. No freewill, only truth sets us free, if He wants you to be His adopted elect son, & we have no say in being born again, (anothen- from above), & happens over a lifetime of gradually being saved, & conforming to the likeness of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted August 27, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2019 15 hours ago, Yeshua153 said: You would make a good politician, never answering the questions properly, I will repeat myself again, where in the bible apart from freewill offerings, is freewill mentioned? Choose & choice is still selfwill, just as we have self-confidence, self-esteem, self-discovery, self-worth etc. God wants us to crucify self daily Lk9v23. No freewill, only truth sets us free, if He wants you to be His adopted elect son, & we have no say in being born again, (anothen- from above), & happens over a lifetime of gradually being saved, & conforming to the likeness of Christ. I posted plenty of scriptures that support the free will position.. If you are simply going to say that i have not in total denial of what i have posted then their is no point to any further correspondence with you.. Fellowship must be based on honesty.. Personal attacks and insults show a lack of love for the brethren.. calling me a politician as you did was a clear insulting personal attack.. May you be forgiven.. I will be placing you on my ignore list.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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