The Barbarian Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 I'll fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Alive said: How do you discuss novel 'body plans'? Can you show me a novel body plan that has no antecedents at all?  Let's talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 minute ago, The Barbarian said: Can you show me a novel body plan that has no antecedents at all?  Let's talk about it. I can't show you a novel body plan at all. Can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Alive said: I can't show you a novel body plan at all. Can you? In the sense that it has no evolutionary antecedents at all, no.  Don't know of one.  I do know of some that appeared to be so, such as early bilateral organisms, but it turns out, there are antecedents there as well.  Good point.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Deeper---is there an example since mammals of a novel body plan? I am not a biologist, but it is my understanding that at both the DNA/RNA level and the cellular level, because of the great many things that need to happen concurrently, that it is both practically and mathematically impossible. I don't accept the 'given enough time' answer, by the way. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 19 hours ago, Tampered With said: First this is off topic and as I said I was studying Biology back in 1972 when things were way more basic than they are today. So if you are wanting to play "gotcha" you will have to play with yourself. I never said I know a lot about Genetics. I said my Biology professor said I knew more about the subject back in 1972 than her grad. students at that particular time. If you are going to quote and you are a Christian; then please quote accurately! Now anymore verbal gymnastics? The earliest mention of that fusion in the literature (as far as I can find) was in 1968.  It's not news.  But much of the evidence verifying the fusion is comparatively recent (given a half-century from the first cite).  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Alive said: Deeper---is there an example since mammals of a novel body plan? I don't know of any "novel" body plan.   The earliest deuterostomes had larva which clearly show the beginning of vertebrate body plans. And bilaterans existed before the "Cambrian explosion." 5 minutes ago, Alive said: I am not a biologist, but it is my understanding that at both the DNA/RNA level and the cellular level, No, it's more basic than that.  Molecular level.   It's chemistry.  If you think the origin of life is impossible, the evidence clearly says you're wrong.   But evolutionary theory isn't about how life began; it's about existing life and how it changes over time. Even Darwin just suggested that God created the first living things.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Barbarian said: I don't know of any "novel" body plan.   The earliest deuterostomes had larva which clearly show the beginning of vertebrate body plans. And bilaterans existed before the "Cambrian explosion." No, it's more basic than that.  Molecular level.   It's chemistry.  If you think the origin of life is impossible, the evidence clearly says you're wrong.   But evolutionary theory isn't about how life began; it's about existing life and how it changes over time. Even Darwin just suggested that God created the first living things.   Yes--everything renders down to the molecular level in biology. However, the molecular level extends from protein bases through to  DNA/RNA and cells and the 'information' required to build body plans. BTW--I absolutely do not believe origin of life is possible chemically strictly by that thing people call 'chance'. I repeat--I am not a biologist. I have informed myself just enough to satisfy my ongoing desire to see my 'Creator' in His 'Creation'.  Yes--I understand Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism. Edited October 22, 2019 by Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Alive said: I absolutely do not believe origin of life is possible chemically strictly by that thing people call 'chance'. I tend to agree, although I wouldn't quite use the same strong words. To me, the way the evidence currently stands, I believe that divine creation of the first cells is more plausible than the development of the first cells through unguided chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 22, 2019 I will post some math related to the probability mechanics related to first life possibilities without an intelligence involved. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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