The fulness of the Gentiles

[choir loft]

On 9/27/2019 at 4:26 PM, Heleadethme said:

There is a church, called the ekklesia in the Greek.......BUT it is a spiritual Body and is the one new man, made up of the twain (Jew and Gentile), and it is not an institution, as you are saying.

The marriage of the Lamb....I believe that as Pentecost was the betrothal, with part of the bride price being paid as the earnest against the promised marriage/consummation... that the marriage will mean the fullness of the "balance owing" of the measure of the Spirit is given to the bride.....meaning Christ taking full possession of His Bride.

If the church isn't an institution, then why have you declared yourself to be a member of it?  

You stood before the congregation and were congratulated on joining the fellowship and might even have been given a small wallet sized card to prove it.  You are on their email list.   You may even participate in physical assemblies on a regular basis (called worship services & club meetings/choir practice/Bible study groups).  But you deny these things?  NONE of those meetings are invisible!  They are part of the institutional church.  Who do you think you're fooling?  Yourself perhaps, but not me.

There are two definitions of "church" commonly accepted.  

- One is the physical institutional franchise version one once saw on every street corner in smallTown, USA.  (but like commercial shopping malls they are dwindling)

- The other is generally thought to be an "invisible" church of believers.   Some people, who have no real theological training or understanding or who just like to argue, deem the two to be the same thing.

Denial of the physical institutional church as a legal entity is a function of a brain dead fanatic, who for purposes of proving themselves to be some sort of religious guru, refuses to acknowledge FACT.

Discussions and debates among people who have normally functioning cerebral tissue begins with recognition of facts as a basis for discussion.   After facts are established, logic is employed to move from one assertion and conclusion to another.   The combination of facts and logic have been accepted forms of debate since the ancient Hebrews first invented it.

Christians tend to lose their minds and all forms of cognitive ability when they push push push their slogans and buzz words.   When they enter this thread they are like people who walk into Walmart and immediately drop 15 points from their IQ.  They are not the children of Christ, but rather Adolph Hitler who said, "All effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand.".   They do not understand the religious slogans and buzz words they repeat to justify their errant dogma.  Neither do they understand what is commonly taught in Bible colleges - that congregations can be easily manipulated by the use of slogans and familiar phrases.

Such persons persist in refusing to accept the most common definitions of words on these pages, such as the definition of the institutional church.    Without this basis in fact, nothing proceeds from the discussion except acrimony and character assassination.

Can we start with a clear definition of 'institutional church' and proceed to other matters or will you persist in asserting your fantasies and perhaps accuse me of insanity or faithlessness?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 29, 2019 by choir loft

[dhchristian]

Just now, choir loft said:

If the church isn't an institution, then why have you declared yourself to be a member of it?  

You stood before the congregation and were congratulated on joining the fellowship and might even have been given a small wallet sized card to prove it.  YOU are on their email list.   You may even participate in physical assemblies on a regular basis (called worship services & club meetings/choir practice/Bible study groups).  But you deny these things?  NONE of those meetings are invisible.  They are part of the institutional church.  Who do you think you're fooling?

There are two definitions of "church" commonly accepted.  

- One is the physical institutional franchise version one once saw on every street corner in smallTown, USA.  

- The other is generally thought to be an "invisible" church of believers.   In most cases, people deem the two to be the same thing, as on these pages.

Denial of the physical institutional church as a legal entity is a function of a brain dead obstinate person, who for purposes of proving themselves to be some sort of religious guru, refuses to acknowledge FACT.

Discussions and debates among people who have normally functioning cerebral tissue begins with recognition of facts as a basis for discussion.   After facts are established, logic is employed to move from one assertion and conclusion to another.   The combination of facts and logic have been accepted forms of debate since the ancient Hebrews first invented it.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; (1 Cor. 13:4-6)

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. (1 Cor. 3:18-20)

[dhchristian]

3 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Discussions and debates among people who have normally functioning cerebral tissue

A.W. Tozer on Pride

 

I want to share a passage I read a while ago that’s always stuck with me when I think about the issue of pride.  In Matthew 11.28-30, Jesus says this:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” – Matthew 11.28-30 (NIV)

What follows here is part of A.W. Tozer’s great work The Pursuit of God, where he discusses a bit of what he thinks Jesus means when referring to the burdens we carry around.  This is one of my go-to passages when I’m thinking about pride:

The burden borne by mankind is a heavy and a crushing thing.  The word Jesus used means "a load carried or toil borne to the point of exhaustion."  Rest is simply release from that burden.  It is not something we do; it is what comes to use when we cease to do.  His own meekness, that is the rest.

Let us examine our burden.  It is altogether an interior one.  It attacks the heart and the mind and reaches the body only from within.  First, there is the burden of pride.  The labor of self-love is a heavy one indeed.  Think for yourself whether much of your sorrow has not arisen from someone speaking slightingly of you.  As long as you set yourself up as a little god to which you must be loyal there will be those who delight to offer affront to your idol.  How then can you hope to have inward peace?  The heart's fierce effort to protect itself from every slight, to shield its touchy honor from the bad opinion of friend and enemy, will never let the mind have rest.  Continue this fight through the years and the burden will become intolerable.  Yet the sons of earth are carrying this burden continually, challenging every word spoken against them, cringin under every criticism, smarting under each fancied slight, tossing sleepless if another is preferred before them. 

Such a burden as this is not necessary to bear.  Jesus calls us to His rest, and meekness is His method.  The meek man cares not at all who is greater than he, for he has long ago decided that the esteem of the world is not worth the effort.  He develops toward himself a kindly sense of humor and learns to say, "Oh, so you have been overlooked?  They have placed someone else before you?  They ahve whispered that you are pretty small stuff after all?  And now you feel hurt because the world is saying about you the very things you have been saying about yourself?  Only yesterday you were telling God that you were nothing, a mere worm of the dust.  Where is your consistency?  Come on, humble yourself and cease to care what men think."

The meek man is not a human mouse afflicted with a sense of his own inferiority.  Rather, he may be in his moral life as bold as a lion and as strong as Samson; but he has stopped being fooled about himself.  He has accepted God's estimate of his own life.  He knows he is as weak and helpless as God has declared him to be, but paradoxically, he knows at the same time that he is, in the sight of God, more important than angels.  In himself, nothing; in God, everything.  That is his motto.  He knows well that the world will never see him as God sees him and he has stopped caring.  He rests perfectly content to allow God to place His own values.  He will be patient to wait for the day when everything will get its own price tag and real worth will come into its own.  Then the righteousness shall shine forth in the kingdom of their Father.  He is willing to wait for that day.

In the meantime, he will have attained a place of soul rest.  As he walks on in meekness he will be happy to let God defend him.  The old struggle to defend himself is over.  He has found the peace which meekness brings."

https://jperdue.blogspot.com/2008/12/aw-tozer-on-pride.html

- A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

[choir loft]

21 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; (1 Cor. 13:4-6)

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. (1 Cor. 3:18-20)

You cannot admit to the truth of anything I write and shift to scripture which you use as a slogan to defend your own aberrant argument.  Your scripture references mean nothing because you hide in darkness and like the devil you imitate quote scripture to mask the truth.

You can't even accept a common definition of the institutional church.

Why do you persist in denying acceptance of the meaning of simple words and phrases? 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

[choir loft]

20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

A.W. Tozer on Pride

 

I want to share a passage I read a while ago that’s always stuck with me when I think about the issue of pride.  In Matthew 11.28-30, Jesus says this:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” – Matthew 11.28-30 (NIV)

What follows here is part of A.W. Tozer’s great work The Pursuit of God, where he discusses a bit of what he thinks Jesus means when referring to the burdens we carry around.  This is one of my go-to passages when I’m thinking about pride:

The burden borne by mankind is a heavy and a crushing thing.  The word Jesus used means "a load carried or toil borne to the point of exhaustion."  Rest is simply release from that burden.  It is not something we do; it is what comes to use when we cease to do.  His own meekness, that is the rest.

Let us examine our burden.  It is altogether an interior one.  It attacks the heart and the mind and reaches the body only from within.  First, there is the burden of pride.  The labor of self-love is a heavy one indeed.  Think for yourself whether much of your sorrow has not arisen from someone speaking slightingly of you.  As long as you set yourself up as a little god to which you must be loyal there will be those who delight to offer affront to your idol.  How then can you hope to have inward peace?  The heart's fierce effort to protect itself from every slight, to shield its touchy honor from the bad opinion of friend and enemy, will never let the mind have rest.  Continue this fight through the years and the burden will become intolerable.  Yet the sons of earth are carrying this burden continually, challenging every word spoken against them, cringin under every criticism, smarting under each fancied slight, tossing sleepless if another is preferred before them. 

Such a burden as this is not necessary to bear.  Jesus calls us to His rest, and meekness is His method.  The meek man cares not at all who is greater than he, for he has long ago decided that the esteem of the world is not worth the effort.  He develops toward himself a kindly sense of humor and learns to say, "Oh, so you have been overlooked?  They have placed someone else before you?  They ahve whispered that you are pretty small stuff after all?  And now you feel hurt because the world is saying about you the very things you have been saying about yourself?  Only yesterday you were telling God that you were nothing, a mere worm of the dust.  Where is your consistency?  Come on, humble yourself and cease to care what men think."

The meek man is not a human mouse afflicted with a sense of his own inferiority.  Rather, he may be in his moral life as bold as a lion and as strong as Samson; but he has stopped being fooled about himself.  He has accepted God's estimate of his own life.  He knows he is as weak and helpless as God has declared him to be, but paradoxically, he knows at the same time that he is, in the sight of God, more important than angels.  In himself, nothing; in God, everything.  That is his motto.  He knows well that the world will never see him as God sees him and he has stopped caring.  He rests perfectly content to allow God to place His own values.  He will be patient to wait for the day when everything will get its own price tag and real worth will come into its own.  Then the righteousness shall shine forth in the kingdom of their Father.  He is willing to wait for that day.

In the meantime, he will have attained a place of soul rest.  As he walks on in meekness he will be happy to let God defend him.  The old struggle to defend himself is over.  He has found the peace which meekness brings."

https://jperdue.blogspot.com/2008/12/aw-tozer-on-pride.html

- A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

???

[choir loft]

On 9/27/2019 at 3:37 PM, Alive said:

I think the so called rapture is when the Lord shows up to begin the 1000 years.

I am not sure what that is called, though.

On 9/27/2019 at 3:37 PM, Alive said:

 

The traditionally accepted definition of the one thousand year reign of Christ is called the MILLENIUM.   It's also the same word commonly used to refer to any 1,000 year division of history.

From the beginning of the institutional church, theologians wrested with three different definitions of Christ's millenial reign; pre-millenium, post-millennium and a-millenium.   Each of these theological propositions defined the doctrine by the arrival of Christ upon the earth.

Pre-millenium theories suggested Jesus would return to earth before His thousand year reign as political leader of the world.

Post-Millennium theories suggested Jesus would return after the entire world had 'heard the gospel and joined the church'.  

A-millenial theories suggested that Jesus would not actually physically return or rule the earth but that He would rule from heaven.

The above are all simply worded and simply stated.  The full actual verbiage is quite extensive and not suited for limited publication on these pages.

Post-Millenialism

Historically, all these theories continued in the church until the end of World War I, when it became obvious to scholars and men of cognizant brain function that the Post-Millennium theory was a wash.  It became obvious to protestant evangelicals, who were not as well educated, after June 1967, when it was realized the gospel would NOT conquer all the world.   It was a close thing in the 1950's and 1960's, but by the 1970's most leaders realized (but couldn't admit it to their adherents) it wasn't going to happen.   The evidence is clear today to anyone that has eyes to see and ears to hear and a mind that hasn't been affected by toxic slogans and buzz words.

A-Millenialism

This form is still accepted by the Roman type congregations; Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Anglican and Lutheran.   They may give lip service to the physical second coming of Christ, but they do not official acknowledge Lordship either in literature or official apologetic.  To them its a control issue.  If Christ actually returns they lose power and influence.  Can't have that happen, so they deny it altogether.

Pre-Millenialism

This form is further broken down by recent aberrations in the estimation of Christ's actual touch-down on the earth.   Called the rapture theory, it is itself broken down into at least three different doctrines.  It is an extremely divisive doctrine because it is fanatically affirmed by the zealots who've been manipulated into believing it. It's a joke to those that don't swallow their nonsense.  Consequently it's one of the factors that have resulted in the disrespect the church has earned among people who prefer their religion to be based in part upon logic.  

These theories have Jesus returning two three or even four times to the earth when the Bible says He'll return once.  Proof positive of this ridiculous obsession will be seen by the reader in the numerous objections to my assessment which will follow.  I will be mis-quoted, my sanity will be called into question and my salvation will be doubted - all of which are the criticisms heaped upon Jesus when He tried to teach truth to those who knew they were smarter than He was.

This is the millennial doctrine in a nutshell, complete with a description of some of the nuts who buy into aberrant parts of it.

I close with a warning.  This topic is extremely toxic.  

Don't expect to ever discover a solid explanation for it.  You, like the rest of us, will just have to wait and see what will happen.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... 

Edited September 29, 2019 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 9/26/2019 at 5:07 PM, iamlamad said:

All you are doing is calling God a liar. Satan has been trying now for almost 6000 years to prove God to lie. The truth is, God CAN'T lie. You have been avoiding the right scriptures. May I suggest you start with Ezekiel 37?

Eze: 47: ¹³ This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph. ¹⁴ You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.

God has allready said which tribe will be where during the millennium.

Nobody is calling God a liar.

Just you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[dhchristian]

14 minutes ago, choir loft said:

???

What's the matter, Cerebral tissue not "functioning normally"?

 

17 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You cannot admit to the truth of anything I write and shift to scripture which you use as a slogan to defend your own aberrant argument.  Your scripture references mean nothing because you hide in darkness and like the devil you imitate quote scripture to mask the truth.

You are unable to process the Word of God, is the Problem. Your carnal mind is incapable of Grasping what the Holy Spirit says, as you lack the ears to hear, and the eyes to see.....

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:7-8)

 

[choir loft]

On 9/26/2019 at 5:14 PM, iamlamad said:

Keep singing in the choir! Maybe you will get the messages of the songs. Ever sing "I'll Fly Away?"  Or did you refuse to sing that one?  how about "I've God a Mansion..?"

You are very smug in your self-righteous attitude.  You are the only one who knows anything about rightness and love of God, aren't you?

Do you not know O man that God hates a hypocrite?   Look in the mirror when you accuse someone of being a lip service Christian.   You'll see the foremost member of that club when you do.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[dhchristian]

Just now, choir loft said:

Nobody is calling God a liar.

Just you.

"I know you are but what am I" Schoolyard response deviating from the facts.