What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't know how anyone could read this any differently!

² And I saw a strong angel announcing in a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll? And [who is entitled and deserves and is morally fit] to break its seals?

³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in the realm of the dead, Hades] was able to open the scroll or to take a [single] look at its contents.

⁴ And I wept audibly and bitterly because no one was found fit to open the scroll or to inspect it.  (AMP)

What is this telling us? Exactly what it says: a search was made, for one worthy. This search took place in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and NO MAN WAS FOUND.  Is that difficult to understand? I don't think so: it means just what it says, at that point in time NO MAN ANYWHERE was worthy to take the book and open the seals.

I have heard the arguments: perhaps it wasn't a real search; perhaps the angel was looking for someone to volunteer. If that were true, still, NO ONE WAS QUALIFIED at that time to volunteer. I am not reading into this anything that is not in the meanings of the words themselves. When John wrote "no man" he meant no man.

The travailing woman in Revelation 12 are the saints prior to their redemption and birth during the time of great tribulation. 

Can we PLEASE just follow what is written instead of adding man's human reasoning? Go back and read it again! Jesus told those in Judea to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES when they see the abomination. We see this fleeing begin in verse 6. More information is added in the later verse: those that flee will be fed supernaturally and receive supernatural protection. These are JEWS and HEBREWS. They are the people living in Judea today.

Again, just read the text: don't add your theory:

² She was pregnant and she cried out in her birth pangs, in the anguish of her delivery.

The "travail" is because she is giving BIRTH. Yes, even Mary giving birth to the Messiah had birth pains. That is what this passage is about: the birth of Christ and then how Satan used King Herod to try and murder the child.

The angel proclaims in a loud voice who is worthy to open the seals in the then present time of John in 95 AD. That is not some earlier past event. If it were an earlier past event, then the statement in Revelation 4:1 that what John is to be shown in forthcoming chapters regards the "hereafter" would be invalid.

There's nothing mentioned about the travailing woman in Revelation 12 being Mary, which would make Revelation 12 a historical account of events and not prophesy. I provided you with scriptures in Daniel 7:25 in regards to the saints during the time frame which correlates with the time frame in Revelation 12, thus indicating the travailing woman representing the saints, which you seem to just ignore, by claiming it as human reasoning. We see the same beast's mouth who speaks great things and wears out the saints for the time, times, and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25, reiterated in Revelation 13:7. Can you provide correlation supported by scripture of the travailing woman supposedly representing Mary? If you cannot, why should I believe unsupported conjecture?

  Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[iamlamad]

9 minutes ago, luigi said:

The angel proclaims in a loud voice who is worthy to open the seals in the then present time of John in 95 AD. That is not some earlier past event. If it were an earlier past event, then the statement in Revelation 4:1 that what John is to be shown in forthcoming chapters regards the "hereafter" would be invalid.

There's nothing mentioned about the travailing woman in Revelation 12 being Mary, which would make Revelation 12 a historical account of events and not prophesy. I provided you with scriptures in Daniel 7:25 in regards to the saints during the time frame which correlates with the time frame in Revelation 12, thus indicating the travailing woman representing the saints, which you seem to just ignore, by claiming it as human reasoning. We see the same beast's mouth who speaks great things and wears out the saints for the time, times, and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25, reiterated in Revelation 13:7. Can you provide correlation supported by scripture of the travailing woman supposedly representing Mary? If you cannot, why should I believe unsupported conjecture?

  Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

John saw this vision in 95 AD, but we must pay close attention: a vision can be of the past, present, or future, and all three mixed in together. Just because John saw the vision in 95 AD does not mean that was the time displayed inside the vision. The first clue is that Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the FAther, when in 95 AD we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been.  This was GOD showing John this vision, so we must ask: "God, why did you show John a throne room with Jesus missing?  What is your purpose?" 

In all of time, covered by the New Testament, there was only 32 years when Jesus would NOT have been seen at the right hand of the Father. God is pointing the reader towards those 32 years while Jesus was on earth and NOT in heaven. Next we see there was a time (The very time the angels cried out searching for one) when no man anywhere was qualified to take the book and open the seal. When we see and believe this, we understand that at one time Jesus was NOT qualified to take the book, but later BECAME qualifed. How? He prevailed over death: He rose from the dead. AGain this points to 32 AD.

 

My friend, did you just skip over my first post on this and not read it. Jesus, the head of the church TOLD ME (I heard His voice and His words) that chapter 12 was about the Dragon. (He told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned including pronouns. He told me chapter 12 was in particular about what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. That part is easy to see. It is a midpoint chapter.

Now pay close attention: these are the words of Jesus, the Head of the Church. "I also CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID after I was born, how he tried to murder me as a young child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

You are free to believe anything you want; but i am telling you as boldly as I know how, that Jesus Christ TOLD ME those first 5 verses were about HIS BIRTH and how Satan tried to murder Him using King Herod.  Reading over those verses, meditating on them, studying them - all seem to show exactly what Jesus spoke to me.  Why do you think God hung VIRGO in the sky? It was to represent MARY. The gospel story is told in the sky. The Dragon also in in the sky as DRACO.  I don't know enough astronomy to know if Draco ever gets close to Virgo.

I will agree with you that from verse 6 on, it is talking about all the events Satan has anything to do with at the midpoint of the week and after.

 appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head.   This is a perfect description of VIRGO, but ONLY at certain times. I searched Stellarium from 10 BC to 10 AD, and only ONE YEAR fit this description perfectly: around Sept. 1: 2 BC. This sign in the sky was to point to the birth of the Messiah.  She has NEVER been known as "the church." She is VIRGO the virgin.

Another verse goes with this one:

Genesis 37:9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.  This is pointing the reader to know that "the woman" is Israel.  Virgo has a crown (almost a perfect circle) of 12 stars for her crown.

Then another proof this is about the virgin from Israel: Jesus told those in JUDEA to flee: who lives there? Jews and Hebrews: ISRAEL. This passage has nothing to do with the church!

² She was pregnant and she cried out in her birth pangs, in the anguish of her delivery.  After seeing a picture of a virgin, then reading this, what should one think of? Of course a pregnant woman crying out in birth pangs! Any beginning reader would get this.

However, from you side of this argument, few if ANY commentators have this passage as Mary. I could not find one. Some commentators  are so confused as to say the church gave birth to the Messiah!  (I kid you not!)

Notice these words:

which would make Revelation 12 a historical account of events and not prophesy  Only the first 5 verses are historic, written as a parenthesis. I did not make this clear, but when I could not answer Jesus' three questions on chapters 4 & 5, He sent me HERE to chapter 12 to find the answers. The answers were hidden in His words, "history lesson."  You are free to believe or not believe. I can only tell you what He said. But I will remind you, what He said fits these scriptures perfectly!

The Beast will indeed wear out the saints (but not the church which will be removed before this time) But that is not what these 5 verses are about. For that, look here:

¹⁷ So then the dragon was furious (enraged) at the woman, and he went away to wage war on the remainder of her descendants—[on those] who obey God’s commandments and who have the testimony of Jesus Christ [and adhere to it and ^[a]bear witness to Him].

Why "remainder" or "remnant?" Because the rapture happened previously: the main load removed from the earth before His wrath.  But here, at the very start of the last 3.5 years, Satan turns to fight against the saints.

[luigi]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

John saw this vision in 95 AD, but we must pay close attention: a vision can be of the past, present, or future, and all three mixed in together. Just because John saw the vision in 95 AD does not mean that was the time displayed inside the vision. The first clue is that Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the FAther, when in 95 AD we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been.  This was GOD showing John this vision, so we must ask: "God, why did you show John a throne room with Jesus missing?  What is your purpose?" 

 

A vision cannot be of the past if the Lord tells John that what he is about to be shown in chapters 4 through 22 concern the hereafter. You are in effect denying the Word to fit your false perspective.

[luigi]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

Why "remainder" or "remnant?" Because the rapture happened previously: the main load removed from the earth before His wrath.  But here, at the very start of the last 3.5 years, Satan turns to fight against the saints.

The time, times, and half time in which the woman, who represent the saints, whom the beast's mouth wears out (Daniel 7:25), and overcomes (Revelation 13:7) go through the worst of times, also referred to as a great tribulation, with a great many of them dying during the episode. The remnant are they who are still with their skins at the end of the tribulation.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, luigi said:

The time, times, and half time in which the woman, who represent the saints, whom the beast's mouth wears out (Daniel 7:25), and overcomes (Revelation 13:7) go through the worst of times, also referred to as a great tribulation, with a great many of them dying during the episode. The remnant are they who are still with their skins at the end of the tribulation.

Sorry, but you are totally ignoring the TIMING: this is at teh midpoint of the week. The False prophet has not shown up yet. The Beast has not risen from the waters (but is just about to). Meaning, the image and mark are not yet created to the days of GT are not yet started but are just about to.  This remnant is the remnant that were not born again but called themeselves "christian" and when left behind, got very serious with God and turned to Him. The church will be raptured just before the 6th seal. This midpoint is after the 7th seal, then after the 7 trumpets. I will agree, during those days of GT a great many will die.

I have often wondered, would a Buddhist bow down to an image of a man? Would a Hindu? I just don't know.

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, luigi said:

A vision cannot be of the past if the Lord tells John that what he is about to be shown in chapters 4 through 22 concern the hereafter. You are in effect denying the Word to fit your false perspective.

You are putting God it a box! QUIT! God did not put an ONLY in that sentence. It seems you have a very STRONG desire to make God say He would show John ONLY things in the future. Luigi, God did not say that! And God DID, most certainly, show John MANY MANY things of the "hereafter." In other words, He did exactly what He said He would do. Don't put words in God's mouth to say  "only" when He did not say it.

[luigi]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are totally ignoring the TIMING: this is at teh midpoint of the week. The False prophet has not shown up yet. The Beast has not risen from the waters (but is just about to). Meaning, the image and mark are not yet created to the days of GT are not yet started but are just about to.  This remnant is the remnant that were not born again but called themeselves "christian" and when left behind, got very serious with God and turned to Him. The church will be raptured just before the 6th seal. This midpoint is after the 7th seal, then after the 7 trumpets. I will agree, during those days of GT a great many will die.

I have often wondered, would a Buddhist bow down to an image of a man? Would a Hindu? I just don't know.

Remnant = survivors, as in they who come away alive from the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:30-35. 

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 

[luigi]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are putting God it a box! QUIT! God did not put an ONLY in that sentence. It seems you have a very STRONG desire to make God say He would show John ONLY things in the future. Luigi, God did not say that! And God DID, most certainly, show John MANY MANY things of the "hereafter." In other words, He did exactly what He said He would do. Don't put words in God's mouth to say  "only" when He did not say it.

The Lord called John up to heaven to be shown things in the hereafter. I don't think John was in heaven to be provided a history lesson.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

The Lord called John up to heaven to be shown things in the hereafter. I don't think John was in heaven to be provided a history lesson.

Question: please answer it honestly according to the Word: DID God show John things that were "hereafter?"
Answer: in case you did not wish to answer: YES YES YES, God showed John MANY MANY things  - some still in OUR future!

In other words, God did EXACTLY what He said.

Edited October 18, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

Remnant = survivors, as in they who come away alive from the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:30-35. 

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 

No, a remnant is a group left over after any event. In this case there is only a remnant of believers on the earth after the pretrib rapture.

This verse you quoted, just so you know, is looking back at the days when Antiochus Epiphanes was running rampant against Israel.