CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Paul said the Law was “weak”.It was.It had no POWER to save.So why do you venerate it so much?Its WORTHLESS as far as Salvation is concerned .The Law was so inadequate God had to put in place a NEW Plan.....not really “ new”—— it was a mystery that was kept secret for Millenia ......It’s called the Gospel...Read all about it on 1 Cor15:1-4.....If the Law has done its intended job in your life — showing you that you can’t keep it and need a Savior......discard it and go with something that God knows is infinitely better as far as obedience and right- living is concerned.... “ Christ in you”. Grace is  SO superior to Law Keeping .If one is not reveling in Grace,they do not understand Christianity.At all.Have fun with your religion—“ JudaAnity”. God won’t have it. 

 

"Paul said the Law was “weak”.It was.It had no POWER to save."

Sure, law without faith is weak....Agreed!

Law without faith does NOT SAVE.  Agreed!

 

"So why do you venerate it so much?"

 

Here's why (condensed version!):

1. HOLINESS! Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  So, BE HOLY means OBEY TORAH (1Pe.1:16).

2. GOODNESS! Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  So, DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) means OBEY TORAH.

3. RIGHTEOUSNESS! Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  So, DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7;Mt.5:20) means OBEY TORAH, or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

4. SPIRITUAL!  Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  So, SEEK AND PURSUE the SPIRITUAL (1Cor.14:1) entails OBEYING TORAH.

5. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So, STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH.

6. The New Covenant inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33), so of COURSE we should obey the very Torah, because TORAH is foundational to the New Covenant in which we partake.

7. FAITHFULNESS!  The SPIRIT!  Torah-obedience is a fruit of the spirit (FAITH)!  Because the FRUIT includes FAITH, and Torah is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.18:15;32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138), so Paul's requirement of FAITH (Gal.3:11) is a requirement of FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE.  Again, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).  Again, we see the SPIRIT leads us to obey all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).  Again, we see the Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16).  Again, we see the Spirit is opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13); and the flesh is opposed to Torah-obedience (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit is opposed to Torah-disobedience; so we must obey Torah in the Spirit!

8. JUSTIFICATION!  Those who do the Torah will be JUSTIFIED (Rom.2:13).

9. LOVE!  Those who LOVE will obey TORAH (1Jn.5:3).  Jesus agrees (applying Dt. 6 to you in Mt. 22:37); and Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) confirms that love for God is expressed through obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.6:25).

10. PEACE!  Those who LOVE (not disobey!) Torah will have PEACE (Ps.119:165).  Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

11. JOY!  We should REJOICE in Torah (not disobey it!)  (Ps.119:162).  Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

12. TRUTH!  We should REJOICE in truth (1Cor.13:6), not disobey it!  Torah is TRUTH (Ps.119:142).  So REJOICE in Torah!  Don't disobey it!

13.  SHADOW!  The shadow IS (present tense) an ONGOING function (PRESENT tense in Col.2:17;Heb.10:1).  We you see a tree....behold!  The shadow is STILL THERE!

14. Torah is required by Moses, the other Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, the Father, Son, Spirit, Gospels, Apostles, Epistles, Hebrews, and Revelation.

 

"Its WORTHLESS as far as Salvation is concerned ."

It's sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28), or else Jesus was a liar.

 

"The Law was so inadequate God had to put in place a NEW Plan"

The NEW Covenant contains the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

Torah was DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10).

NEW Covenant.

SAME Torah.

 

"It’s called the Gospel...Read all about it on 1 Cor15:1-4....."

Ahhh....written by Paul who requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Ok!  Let's read it!

 

1Co 15:1

¶

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

 

 1Co 15:2

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [fn]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

 

 1Co 15:3

¶

For I delivered to you [fn]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

 

 1Co 15:4

and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

 

 

Now let's talk about it.

You are saved IF we "hold fast the word" preached by Paul (1Cor.15:2).  Paul preached TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) as the substance of his word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 as the FAITH of Rom.10:8).

Again, Paul preached obedience to ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16).

 

So, we are saved, IF we grow in faithful obedience to all Torah.....

 

BUT, if we DISOBEY AND OPPOSE AND TERMINATE AND CANCEL AND ABOLISH Torah....well...then expect this: (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

 

So, let's OBEY!

 

Thanks for bringing out this important passage in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

Good point.

 

 

".If the Law has done its intended job in your life — showing you that you can’t keep it"

OOPS!  The law shows us that we CAN keep it (Dt.30:11).  Moses did not lie.  Luke agrees that ALL Torah can be obeyed (Lk.1:6).

 

 

"discard it and go with something that God knows is infinitely better as far as obedience and right- living is concerned.... “ Christ in you”. "

You mean the CHRIST who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20)?

Ok!  Sounds good.

 

 

" Grace is  SO superior to Law Keeping ."

False dichotomy.

We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) AND GRACE (Rom.3:24) TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

Moses received grace (Ex.33:13) AND Moses obeyed God's ways (i.e., TORAH, 1Ki.2:3).

 

Grace is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

 

".If one is not reveling in Grace,they do not understand Christianity.At all.Have fun with your religion—“ JudaAnity”. God won’t have it. "

What is "JudaAnity"?

 

I'm just a Bible Guy....

I'm just doing what the Bible requires.....

TORAH! (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Heb.8:10).

 

Now, let's see if my critics, here, actually address all these Biblical considerations I've set before them....

 

Go ahead....TEST them according to the Scriptures....

 

blessings...

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

19 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

We come home from work, look in the mirror and see our face is dirty, ...do we use the mirror to wash our face?

The Law is a mirror that we look into, some believe it is physical commandments, ...but God placed 8 material/physical examples of spiritual principles between two spiritual book ends of Truth.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me and Thou shalt not covet, ...when any one tries to turn a spiritual principle into a material/physical "law" they have disobey the first and last commandments...

They have become their "own" god in trying to physically keep the spiritual principles and they have "coveted" after the Divine ability to "keep" the spiritual principles of the other 8. 

Jesus explained this to us when He taught if we lust after a woman in our mind, ...without committing the physical act, we have "committed" the sin, ..or if we think a man is an idiot and speak it from our mouth we are guilty of murder, ...the origin of the sin being in our mind. 

Hence when we bring the spiritual principles of the Law down to the human, physical, material level, we are guilty of listening to the lie of the serpent, ...You will become like God!"

Jesus "kept" the 8 perfectly, and since He is God, ...He didn't have any other gods before the Father and because He is God He didn't have to "covet" the Divine ability to keep the other 8, ...Jesus the 
God who became a Man to accomplish the righteous spiritual requirements of the Law necessary for man to have communion with God reestablished!

Lord bless

"Hence when we bring the spiritual principles of the Law down to the human, physical, material level, we are guilty of listening to the lie of the serpent, ...You will become like God!""

WRONG.

 

TORAH is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14)...

AND!

Torah applies to HUMANS in the PHYSICAL and MATERIAL WORLD, including sacrifices (which Jesus comes to restore, Mal.3:4).

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

16 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

For can NO MAN be JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW IN HIS SIGHT ,  IS VERY EVIDENT . FOR THE JUST shall live how ,  BY FAITH .

Hope you don't mind if I reword your last long sentence .  HERE is how I would put it .

As for all those degrees ,  hermes or exergies , trash it all .  THE BEST TEACHER O GODS WORD ,   IS GOD .    And if ONE HAS THE SPIRIT

then OPEN ONE BOOK called the bible and LEARN FROM IT .   

Yes, the JUST live by FAITH (citing Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11)....

AND, faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

THEREFORE:  We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1).

NOT law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

4 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Shall we sin that grace may abound .  GOD FORBID .  How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in sin , therein .

If we follow Christ then the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in us .   

The doing what is good , holy and righteous in the sight of GOD would be in us .

For He would dwell and does dwell in those who are HIS , whose faith is in CHRIST JESUS .

We would be DOING what is well pleasing IN HIS SIGHT and the law is NOT AGAINST THIS .

The law tells us what is right in the sight of GOD and what is evil in the sight of GOD .

Thus grace does not make VOID the law .  It establishes the law upon our hearts .

And we know that it is not the law that saved us ,  But JESUS WHO SAVED US and gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear that which fulfills , and not that which transgresses .

Grace does not give us a license to sin . FOR WHOM we serve HIS we are .  Grace teaches us to deny that which is evil , the flesh , the lusts , that which is contrary to A HOLY GOD .

And it has us walking righteously , godly , soberly in this world . 

The  law itself pointed to JESUS .    As did the prophets .

We no longer have to do all those ritual sacrifices for sin or error . THE BLOOD of bulls and goats could not sprinkle clean the inner conscious , they held not the power

THE BLOOD of JESUS DOES .   

He has made his law honorable ,  JESUS came to save us from the lake of fire , by paying the price of our transgressions , To set us FREE FROM SIN

that we would no longer be a slave to its desire and be in its bondage . For the end of sin is death . And all will be delivered into the lake of fire who knew NOT CHRIST

and if they knew HIM , they would have known this power I speak about . If any man HAS not the SPIRIT of CHRIST he is none of his , and if we have THE SPIRIT

then the body is dead because of sin . 

There is power in the BLOOD , but it is a POWER that most know not .

By grace GOD draws us to the SON , to FAITH in HIM , and by THIS FAITH we then have access into the continual grace of GOD which changes the heart and mind

the whole inner being into a new man .     Where sin becomes exceeding sinful to us , where in our conscious even the whiff of evil has such a stench unto our nostrils .

That even the sight of evil shuts the eye to all appearance of what is evil .   THERE IS POWER in the BLOOD , only many know it not .

For many have sat under men and those men knew not the POWER of the LIFE SAVING and LIFE CHANGING BLOOD of CHRIST .

Many do not teach as did paul or james , Jude , or peter , OR above all CHRIST DID , when it comes to sin or error . THEY DONT DO IT .

Instead of teaching GO and sin no more ,  if anyone even repeats that phrase , they commonly say , OH WE cant stop sinning are you perfect .

Instead of saying as did paul ,   To let all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity ,   when its said , THEY say , OH GODS grace covers this

HE understands we cant stop sinning , or words to that effect . 

Instead of like paul , teaching to let not these things be named even ONCE among you ,   and when this is said , THEY come up with the same lines

as what I said above . YET paul and others NEVER gave this kind of instruction concerning sin and error and many today do .

For paul knew something that most today would say IS IMPOSSIBLE .  YET IT IS POSSIBLE .

And that is this ,   SIN WILL and DOES HARDEN A HEART and can and will surely destroy a lamb , it will harden its heart .

Paul knew and taught as JESUS had taught and as did the other apostels too .

Sin is deadly and we must fight the fight daily against the very evils of our own flesh ,  keeping the body subjected unto CHRIST

AND ,   if any does err ,  DO the pattern JESUS SET UP ,   CORRECT , warn , rebuke and do so quickly .

Its why my plea has been for all to abandon the many pulpits of men and return to bibles only .    IF we would be read and read continuously those letters

the holy scriptures , the wholesome words of JESUS ,   then our minds would have been built up and we would have remained sharp and alert against the fables of men .

And IF we are truly HIS , THEN HIS SPIRIT would have long put a love for TRUTH upon our hearts .

And lambs don't sit under strangers , no matter how well those strangers can deck themselves up TO LOOK LIKE LAMBS .

NOPE a lamb , BY grace , BY JESUS CHRIST ,  can whiff a wolf no matter how much wool is has put on , IT CAN WHIFF THEM .   JESUS IS with the sheep

and the Grace He gives to his own , is the same grace HIS OWN would share with others .   GET INTO BIBLES PEOPLE ,  its what the HOLY GHOST PUT ME IN

and its now what I , by grace , am doing for others . GO back into BIBLES Only everyone .  DO it now and let the pure words and holy reminders , COUPLED with the SPIRIT

cleanse the minds and hearts of the people .

 

Hi there!

Lot's of good points...thanks!

 

Just wanted to address this comment though: " We no longer have to do all those ritual sacrifices for sin or error . "

The truth is that Jesus DESIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

Jesus comes to RESTORE the sacrifices (Mal.3:4) in the temple (Eze.40-47) He will rebuild (Zec.6) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and even the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot for people of all nations (Zec.14), when we Israelites will return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices again, Dt.30:1-8).

So sure, we (in this present diaspora) are unable to obey Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions....but we WILL again in the future!

Even Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden vow (Ac.21).

THOUSANDS of Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (Ac.21:20).

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priest! (Ac.6:7).

So it's ok to sacrifice!

Bad sacrifices are bad (Ps. 51:16).

But GOOD animal sacrifices are GOOD...and God DELIGHTS in them (Ps.51:19)....and Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).....

 

So don't worry....sacrifices WILL return!

blessings...

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

6 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Yes, the JUST live by FAITH (citing Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11)....

AND, faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

THEREFORE:  We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1).

NOT law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

blessings...

 

So lets clear this up .   I do not have to look to the law to live or walk ,  I LOOK TO JESUS ALONE and thus I LOVE every WORD GOD EVER SPOKE .

May that sink so deep into the hearts of all lambs that if any doctor were to view the brain or heart ,  IT WOULD BE SEEN ETCHED IN BIG LETTERS

JESUS ALONE IS ALL I NEED on both the heart and mind .    Faith without works is dead as death itself , but works without faith IN JESUS ALONE is just as dead .

 

[BibleGuy]

3 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Greetings …

Matthew 5:17-18 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁷ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

¹⁸ For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There are many who teach that Jesus came and was crucified on the Cross at Calvary to do away with the Law.  ...but Jesus Christ Himself said, “think not that I came to destroy the Law, or the Prophets.”  Christ’s purpose and the reason that He came to earth was to fulfill every last prophecy that came out of the mouths of the Prophets of old.  That included the law, for the law was given as a guide for man (and it is as current today as it was then).  The Father knew that man could not keep the Law, and that is why He sent His Son, the only one that could keep the Law perfectly.  The moment our Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross, the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom, thus making it possible for those who would come to Him and become His children to be able to freely approach the throne of God.  And all along, this was our Father’s plan to save us.

The things that were done away with were the blood sacrifices of animals, for Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross fulfilled them all.  ….but the laws and commandments that deal with living Godly lives are still applicable in our everyday lives.  Just try robbing a bank, for example, and see what will happen. 

…and now we love and believe in our Savior, Jesus Christ, for He paid a very high price to save us.  Hallelujah!

Hi there!

Lot's of good points there...thank you.

But I'd like to address this comment:

 

"The Father knew that man could not keep the Law"

Man CAN keep the law (Dt.30:11)...Moses did not lie.  Luke agrees ALL Torah can be obeyed (Lk.1:6).

 

" His Son, the only one that could keep the Law perfectly"

Actually, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) in perfection (Mt.5:48), and Jesus says it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

PERFECTION and SINLESSNESS are not the same.

Torah requires perfection (Dt.18:13)...but Torah EXPECTS you to sin (hence the SIN OFFERINGS, " חַטָּאָת ").

 

So, I think you meant to say: Nobody can keep the Law SINLESSLY.  So THAT is why Jesus died for us....so that He could pay the price we could NEVER pay for ourselves.

ONLY the blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).

 

"The things that were done away with were the blood sacrifices of animals"

Rather, Jesus will come to RESTORE the sacrifices (Mal.3:4) in the temple (Eze.40-47) He will rebuild (Zec.6) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), even the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot for people of all nations (Zec.14), when we again return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8, thus including animal sacrifices again).

After all, Paul partook in a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he obeyed all Torah (Ac.21).

THOUSANDS of Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices, Ac.21:20).

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7).

 

So don't worry....animal sacrifices WILL return....as they should....as prophesied....

blessings...

 

 

blessings...

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

5 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

Lot's of good points...thanks!

 

Just wanted to address this comment though: " We no longer have to do all those ritual sacrifices for sin or error . "

The truth is that Jesus DESIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

Jesus comes to RESTORE the sacrifices (Mal.3:4) in the temple (Eze.40-47) He will rebuild (Zec.6) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and even the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot for people of all nations (Zec.14), when we Israelites will return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in 100% obedience to ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices again, Dt.30:1-8).

So sure, we (in this present diaspora) are unable to obey Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah portions....but we WILL again in the future!

Even Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden vow (Ac.21).

THOUSANDS of Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (Ac.21:20).

Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priest! (Ac.6:7).

So it's ok to sacrifice!

Bad sacrifices are bad (Ps. 51:16).

But GOOD animal sacrifices are GOOD...and God DELIGHTS in them (Ps.51:19)....and Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).....

 

So don't worry....sacrifices WILL return!

blessings...

 

And why would I ever return to the old when I have and ALWAYS will have the only sacrifice I need .     I did not do this sacrifice .  JESUS DID .

and in the time to come , why would I need a return to the blood of bulls and goats .    WHEN MY LORD comes or I die ,  EITHER WAY I wont need that ever again nor do I now .

For when my time is up , when my hour has been spent ,   THE ONLY SACRIFCE that saved me and kept me safe , WAS JESUS and IS JESUS .

And when I am gone and my time is up ,  OR whether I live and see HIS DAY , either way ,   I have ALL I NEED , HE and HIS SACRIFICE BEING ALL I NEED .

ON that day , in that hour whether awake or already asleep ,  ON that day when the ONLY REASON I WAS SAVED does appear ,   ITS A JOY FEST FOR ME .

TILL then may all be ongaurd they are not caught up with the need to ever make sacrifice of animals again .  MY LORD PAID THE PRICE WITH HIS BLOOD , and I shall reap the REWARD

OF HIS DOING .  OF HIS DOING ALONE . 

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Torah= Sin and death. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:2-3)

The Torah leads you to Christ and the cross. In saying Jesus is the Torah, you are saying that he is merely a schoolmaster, and He is weak and cannot do, Which is to Blaspheme Jesus Christ. Are you comfortable with doing this? 

Jesus is Not the Torah. And the Torah is Not your Savior. Your savior is a Person, Jesus Christ, God incarnate. All the Torah does is point to Christ. You are worshipping the street sign and not the one the sign is pointing to.

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)

As you can see the Law is incapable of justification, only condemnation. We are justified by faith alone through grace alone...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Eph 2:8-9)

As You can see in the following verses, Israel who had the Torah were not saved. 

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.(Rom. 10:1-4)

When We have faith in Christ Jesus, We now have the Law of the Spirit of Life, which has replaced the Law of Sin and death, the Old covenant had the Law of sin and death, The Law of the Spirit of Life produces the fruit of the Spirit which the Law of Sin and death could not do. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:22-24)

So Go right ahead and walk by the Torah (The law of Sin and death), I will walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, and By his righteousness imputed upon me. 

"Torah= Sin and death."

Wrong.  Torah is NOT sin (Rom.7:7).

Torah is LIFE (Dt.30:15-19;32:47) for those who obey.  And Jesus expects you to obey (Mt.5:19) and LIVE (Mt.4:4), not die!

 

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:2-3)"

Of COURSE we are not under the law of sin and death!

We are under the law of obedience (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and life (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:15-19;32:47).

After all, Christ requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Christ condemned "SIN IN THE FLESH", not the law itself!

 

And read on!  The SPIRIT is opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh is opposed to Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit is opposed to Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY TORAH!

After all, Paul says the New Covenant in the Spirit includes Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Again, Paul AFFIRMS the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).

 

"In saying Jesus is the Torah, you are saying that he is merely a schoolmaster"

WRONG.  Jesus is ALL the functions of Torah!

Jesus is the schoolmaster:  He leads us to obey Him in faith.

Jesus is holiness: He leads us to obey Torah in holiness.

Jesus is righteousness: He leads us to obey Torah in righteousness.

Jesus is goodness: He leads us to obey Torah in goodness.

Jesus is life:  He leads us to life in obedience to Torah.

Jesus is full of joy: He leads us to rejoice in Torah.

Jesus is of faith:  He leads us to obey in faith.

Jesus is our hope:  He leads us to freely partake in the covenants which give us great hope.

 

So let's STOP disregarding these (and many other) ONGOING Torah functions.

 

"Which is to Blaspheme Jesus Christ. Are you comfortable with doing this? "

Let's not blaspheme Christ....Mt. 5:19 which requires all Torah.

Let's not blaspheme Christ....Mt. 5:20 which requires Torah-obedience GREATER than the corrupted Pharisees....lest you not inherit the forthcoming kingdom.

Let's not blaspheme Christ...Mt. 7:21-23 which CASTS RELIGIOUS PEOPLE AWAY from Jesus...because they did not obey Torah.

Let's not blaspheme Christ...Mt. 13:41-42 which warns of fiery judgment for those who oppose Torah.

 

"Jesus is Not the Torah."

Sure He is!  SAME SUBSTANCE (Jn.1:14;Co.2:17).

 

"And the Torah is Not your Savior. Your savior is a Person, Jesus Christ"

And the substance of JESUS is the substance of TORAH....SAME SUBSTANCE (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17).

 

"All the Torah does is point to Christ. "

It does MORE THAN THAT!

It shows us how to be holy, righteous, good, faithful, joyous, hopeful, covenant-keeping, loving, etc.

And CHRIST points to TORAH (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

"You are worshipping the street sign and not the one the sign is pointing to."

Don't be silly.  We worship God and God alone....and Jesus is Divine....and the substance of Jesus is Torah (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17).

 

"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)"

Of COURSE the blood of animals does not take away sins (Heb.10:4).

Agreed!

That's no excuse to disobey Torah now.

Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"As you can see the Law is incapable of justification"

Rather, we who do the law will be justified (Rom.2:13) IF we also have faith (Rom.2:13).

 

"We are justified by faith alone through grace alone...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.(Eph 2:8-9)"

And that SAME PAUL tells us that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

And GRACE is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34)...and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Of COURSE we are not saved by works without faith.  Agreed!

Paul requires works (2Ti.3:16;Rom.2:13) AND faith (Gal.3:11;Rom.10:8).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"As You can see in the following verses, Israel who had the Torah were not saved. "

That's because Israel did NOT have proper faith!

But don't worry...all Israel will be saved (Rom.11:26)....

And Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4).

You should too (Jer.31:33 cited at Heb.8:10;10:16).

YOU are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).  Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

 

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.(Rom. 10:1-4)"

Awesome!

Christ is the PURPOSE/GOAL/AIM (Gr. " τέλος ", Rom.10:4) of Torah!

After all, Torah points to Christ (Dt.18:15)...

AND!

Christ points us to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

And we should submit ourselves to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, which is exhibited in obedience to ALL TORAH (Dt.6:25).  After all, Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).

 

And don't stop at Rom.10:4!  KEEP READING!

Paul CONFIRMS that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

So obey Torah with faith in Christ, just as Paul preaches!

 

"When We have faith in Christ Jesus, We now have the Law of the Spirit of Life, which has replaced the Law of Sin and death"

True!  Now we obey Torah in the Spirit of Life!

After all, the Spirit TESTIFIES we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

The Spirit confirms that the New Covenant includes Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

The Spirit leads us to obey ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah-0bedience (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY TORAH!

That's why David desires the SPIRIT and also LAW, TOGETHER (Ps.51).  And Paul applies the Torah-obedient Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

After all, Jesus (in the SPIRIT!) brings JUSTICE to the nations (Is.42:1)...and JUSTICE is of TORAH (1Ki.2:3).

 

"the Old covenant had the Law of sin and death"

The Old Covenant ALSO had the law of OBEDIENCE and LIFE (Dt.30:11-15).

So you choose!

OBEY (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) AND LIVE! (Mt.4:4;30:15-19).

Or DISOBEY and DIE (Dt.30:15-19).

Choice is yours.

After all, the SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

"The Law of the Spirit of Life produces the fruit of the Spirit which the Law of Sin and death could not do. "

Good point!

 So OBEY Torah in the Spirit and bear FRUIT!

LOVE! (in obedience to Torah, 1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25)

FAITH! (in obedience to Torah, Mt.23:23)

JOY! (in Torah, Ps.119:162).

PEACE! (in Torah, Ps.119:165)

GOODNESS! (in Torah.Rom.7:12)

 

"against such there is no law."

That's because they ARE THE LAW!

 

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:22-24)"

GREAT point.

OPPOSE the flesh which DISOBEYS Torah (Rom.8:7).

So OBEY!

 

"So Go right ahead and walk by the Torah (The law of Sin and death)"

Why would I disobey the Torah of Sin and Death?  WE should NOT SIN (1Cor.15:34)....

So obey the Torah of OBEDIENCE and LIFE (Dt.30:15-19)....

Do NOT be under the Torah of disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)....

 

I choose to OBEY THE LAW OF OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:15-19;32:47).

Agreed?

 

 

[BibleGuy]

37 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

So lets clear this up .   I do not have to look to the law to live or walk ,  I LOOK TO JESUS ALONE and thus I LOVE every WORD GOD EVER SPOKE .

May that sink so deep into the hearts of all lambs that if any doctor were to view the brain or heart ,  IT WOULD BE SEEN ETCHED IN BIG LETTERS

JESUS ALONE IS ALL I NEED on both the heart and mind .    Faith without works is dead as death itself , but works without faith IN JESUS ALONE is just as dead .

 

" I do not have to look to the law to live or walk"

Rather, walk in the LIGHT (1Jn.1:7)...and the TORAH is the light (Ps.119:105)....

 

"I LOOK TO JESUS ALONE"

And Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19)

 

" I LOVE every WORD GOD EVER SPOKE "

Obey them too! (Mt.7:26).

Love requires Torah-obedience (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

TORAH is spoken by God (Dt.1:3;5:27-33), so LOVE those words in OBEDIENCE!

 

"JESUS ALONE IS ALL I NEED on both the heart and mind .    "

Jesus is NOT a five-letter English word....He is the very substance of Torah (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17)...and He requires Torah (Mt.5:19)....

Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant in which TORAH should be in your heart (Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16) so that you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

 

" Faith without works is dead as death itself , but works without faith IN JESUS ALONE is just as dead ."

Very good.

Thus we need both.

FAITH (Rom.5:1) AND LAW (Rom.2:13) together....for justification.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

11 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

" I do not have to look to the law to live or walk"

Rather, walk in the LIGHT (1Jn.1:7)...and the TORAH is the light (Ps.119:105)....

 

"I LOOK TO JESUS ALONE"

And Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19)

 

" I LOVE every WORD GOD EVER SPOKE "

Obey them too! (Mt.7:26).

Love requires Torah-obedience (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

TORAH is spoken by God (Dt.1:3;5:27-33), so LOVE those words in OBEDIENCE!

 

"JESUS ALONE IS ALL I NEED on both the heart and mind .    "

Jesus is NOT a five-letter English word....He is the very substance of Torah (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17)...and He requires Torah (Mt.5:19)....

Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant in which TORAH should be in your heart (Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16) so that you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

 

" Faith without works is dead as death itself , but works without faith IN JESUS ALONE is just as dead ."

Very good.

Thus we need both.

FAITH (Rom.5:1) AND LAW (Rom.2:13) together....for justification.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

EVER WORD GOD EVER SPOKE and SAID IS BEAUTFUL to the soul of those who truly LOVE HIM .

TO LOVE THE SON IS TO THE LOVE THE FATHER .  

EVERY WORD , from every warning to every promise , IS LOVELY and PURE and FOOD and as honey to the soul .     

As it is written man shall not live by just bread alone , BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD .        many know not this , but many better fast learn it .