1 TIMOTHY 1:16 PAUL IS OUR PATTERN OF SALVATION

[OneLight]

39 minutes ago, douge said:

You said: "Let's look at both the verses and you can tell me what you don't think He can do through us.  And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.  Which of the above do you say does not apply to us today, that Jesus could not do in or through us? "

Jesus could do anything through us but we need to examine scripture to see to whom he decided to do all that is named in Mark 16:17-18

Mark 16:14 Jesus was speaking to the eleven disciples

Mark 16:15 Jesus told the disciples to go preach the gospel. Which gospel? The gospel of grace was not yet revealed so the only gospel being preached by Jesus and the twelve was the gospel of the kingdom.

Mark 16:16 He who believes the gospel and is baptized is saved

Mark 16:17-18 Who gets all these signs? Only those who believe the gospel of the kingdom.....not the church today.....none of these signs are for us.

I'm not going to continue talking in circles like this as it is going nowhere.  I will add that rightly dividing the word is important, this we agree on, but, unlike you, I do not discard the teachings of Jesus.  If, as you say, we are to not take personally the lessons or instructions Jesus spoke to the disciples, we would need to take most of His lessons he spoke to his disciples as an historical event only.  That would be every lesson found in the gospels, from salvation to death, and everything in between, including the promise of the Helper, the Holy Spirit. You may say that the Holy Spirit was also given to the disciples, and this is true, but is the teaching to the disciples in John for us also?  If this is how you want to be as a Christian, remember that will be held accountable for our decisions.  Personally, I would rather be held accountable for trying to follow Jesus to closely then for not following Him close enough.  This is not my understanding of rightly dividing scripture.

God Bless.

[Behold]

On 10/28/2019 at 9:36 AM, OneLight said:

Really?  You seriously do not believe we should preach the truth to the world?  How will those who have not heard hear the truth if we don't?

Let me tell you what ive seen amongst christian fakers who love this verse you are using.

None of them witness. None of them literally share the Gospel off of a Christian forum where they live.   None of them lead anyone to the Lord in REAL Life..  All of them will tell you "well, i believe that if i let my light shine, then they will see it, so, i dont have to really witness verbally".

Yet, all of these fakirs will "speak in tongues", and rant endlessly about the "holy Ghost", and all of them believe that they SHOULD be talking about the "bup'tism with/in the spirit".

So, its an odd anomaly in the Body Of Christ that those who talk the most about the "gifts of the Spirit"  and the "signs of an Apostle".....are the very people who have not led one soul to Christ and trained them to be solid New Testament Christians, their whole life.

Thats what ive noticed over and over and over.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Behold

[OneLight]

59 minutes ago, Behold said:

Let me tell you what ive seen amongst christian fakers who love this verse you are using.

None of them witness. None of them literally share the Gospel off of a Christian forum where they live.   None of them lead anyone to the Lord in REAL Life..  All of them will tell you "well, i believe that if i let my light shine, then they will see it, so, i dont have to really witness verbally".

Yet, all of these fakirs will "speak in tongues", and rant endlessly about the "holy Ghost", and all of them believe that they SHOULD be talking about the "bup'tism with/in the spirit".

So, its an odd anomaly in the Body Of Christ that those who talk the most about the "gifts of the Spirit"  and the "signs of an Apostle".....are the very people who have not led one soul to Christ and trained them to be solid New Testament Christians, their whole life.

Thats what ive noticed over and over and over.

Not sure why you are quoting me on this, unless you are trying to say I am a faker?  Care to explain how my post goes with your rant about others you call "fake"?  It is sad to read that you have had such a negative experience with those who believe the gifts are still in operation today.  If you care to discuss that, it should be done in another thread.

[Behold]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

Not sure why you are quoting me on this, unless you are trying to say I am a faker?  Care to explain how my post goes with your rant about others you call "fake"?  It is sad to read that you have had such a negative experience with those who believe the gifts are still in operation today.  If you care to discuss that, it should be done in another thread.

 

Did i say y9u are a fakir?

What i said is that, in my experience, those that talk about the gifts, do the least amount of actual sharing the Gospel, personally.

Its also my experience that the denominations that are concerned with "gifts", as one of their principle talking points, always teach that you can lose your salvation.

This would be, for example, Meethodist,  all Pentecostal churches, Catholics, and  including Assemply of God, Church of Christ, Nazarene, ..... all those that fall under the umbrella of the  
"Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" movement, they all try to talk other Believers out of their Eternal Security in Christ.

Every Pentecostal that ive ever met, every Charismatic that ive ever talked to,  or that has heard me preach or teach...and its been a LOT of them, for years, .. all have been taught that you can lose your salvation, or as you personally define it, "god will cut you loose".    This is actually a part of all these groups doctrinal statements of belief.  Its in their church handbook.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Behold

[OneLight]

45 minutes ago, Behold said:

 

Did i say y9u are a fakir?

What i said is that, in my experience, those that talk about the gifts, do the least amount of actual sharing the Gospel, personally.

Its also my experience that the denominations that are concerned with "gifts", as one of their principle talking points, always teach that you can lose your salvation.

This would be, for example, Meethodist,  all Pentecostal churches, Catholics, and  including Assemply of God, Church of Christ, Nazarene, ..... all those that fall under the umbrella of the  
"Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" movement, they all try to talk other Believers out of their Eternal Security in Christ.

Every Pentecostal that ive ever met, every Charismatic that ive ever talked to,  or that has heard me preach or teach...and its been a LOT of them, for years, .. all have been taught that you can lose your salvation, or as you personally define it, "god will cut you loose".    This is actually a part of all these groups doctrinal statements of belief.  Its in their church handbook.

 

Why did you quote me then if you were not talking to me about what I believe in?  We both have been around long enough to know when someone is speaking in a passive-aggressive manner.   

I have no idea where you live or what churches you have come in contact with deep enough to stand judge over them, but in my neck of the woods it is not like that at all.  Nobody tries to talk them out of anything pertaining to salvation and fully believe in Eternal Security - warning people to repent before it's too late, before their hearts become too hardened to continue to feel the movement of the Holy Spirit as He convicts them of their sins - this I have seen many times.  Personally, I am nondenominational.  I follow no denominational doctrine, but I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still for today.  I see the problem with the gifts is that He cannot find those who are faithful and mature enough today, so what we do see is a lot of fake gifts instead of the real gifts.

There you go again with "lose your salvation".  As I said before, which you so easily forget or overlook, one cannot lose their salvation like you can lose your keys.  One can turn their back on God, which I explained again in the other thread "Dealing with your sin" where we are discussing the exact same thing. 

As far as how many time you have preached or taught, that really means nothing if your doctrine or theology is off.  Look how many time those who are false teachers teach and preach.  Numbers mean nothing, the message means everything.  As you have said yourself, there are many false teachers out there.  Question is, according to scripture, what makes someone a false teacher?  Disbelieving what the bible says and/or twisting what scripture says to fit a personal theology - not speaking the real truth of scripture.

[Behold]

40 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Why did you quote me then if you were not talking to me about what I believe in?  We both have been around long enough to know when someone is speaking in a passive-aggressive manner.   

I have no idea where you live or what churches you have come in contact with deep enough to stand judge over them, but in my neck of the woods it is not like that at all.  Nobody tries to talk them out of anything pertaining to salvation and fully believe in Eternal Security - warning people to repent before it's too late, before their hearts become too hardened to continue to feel the movement of the Holy Spirit as He convicts them of their sins - this I have seen many times.  Personally, I am nondenominational.  I follow no denominational doctrine, but I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still for today.  I see the problem with the gifts is that He cannot find those who are faithful and mature enough today, so what we do see is a lot of fake gifts instead of the real gifts.

There you go again with "lose your salvation".  As I said before, which you so easily forget or overlook, one cannot lose their salvation like you can lose your keys.  One can turn their back on God, which I explained again in the other thread "Dealing with your sin" where we are discussing the exact same thing. 

As far as how many time you have preached or taught, that really means nothing if your doctrine or theology is off.  Look how many time those who are false teachers teach and preach.  Numbers mean nothing, the message means everything.  As you have said yourself, there are many false teachers out there.  Question is, according to scripture, what makes someone a false teacher?  Disbelieving what the bible says and/or twisting what scripture says to fit a personal theology - not speaking the real truth of scripture.

LIke i told you, all Pentecostal - Charismatic denominations, and the Methodists, and the Catholics and others .... teach, according to their doctrinal statement of faith, that you can lost your salvation.   Or as you prefer it to be phrased, "walk away from God and be cut loose".  Also, all denominations that teach that the predestined elect are the only saved, and  God  chooses some for hell, ...these fringe cults that teach this  hellish stuff claiming to be part of Christ's body,  also teach that you can undo your salvation by your misbehavior, or as you teach it, "walk away and God cuts you loose".

One Light, this is actually known  to most of us as "backsliding", so i guess you have concluded that backsliding is being lost ????, ....until what?     

Do you not recognize that you can't be a backslider unless you are a CHRISTIAN?    So, you are still a Christian, One Light, or you can't be a backslider....   Do you comprehend?

Now as i told JLB and as i'll ask you.    You do understand that God in you, as Christ and the Holy Spirit, is not something that you can undo.   As you didnt put them there.   Do you follow me?

See, when a person is born again, they become the container OF and for God.   "Christ in You"... The Holy Spirit in you. And God Himself, as all are ONE, designates you as HIS TEMPLE to Indwell.

This is Eternal.  This is not temporary, part time, or on occasion.

This is why the New Testament teaches that wherever Christ is, YOU ARE.  and this is not determined by your attitude, mind set, lifestyle, or faith level.   The reason you are where Christ is, and Christ is where you are, is because, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory', and you are "in Christ".

This is why anyone who is born again and  reading this is currently "seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST" right now... One Light.   This is what being born again has caused.   This is why "as Christ IS, so are we in this WORLD"....right now, as this is what being born again, has caused.......... Right now, a born again believer is "bone of Jesus's bone and Flesh of Jesus's Flesh".......:"ONE with God and Christ"........ not  just in the Rapture, not only later in a new body, but RIGHT NOW, as i sit here, and as all believers have become, instantly and for eternity.

So, here is what you can't do. Not ever.  Never....  You can't find a verse in a bible ever written, that says that God will leave His Body, The Church, each of us, as His individual Temple(s).   And that is because He never will..., Except in your personal Theology.

You can't find a verse in a bible, ever created that says that Jesus will stop being in you, and you in Him.  This verse does not exist, because this can never happen.   Except in your personal theology.

You will never find a verse in a bible ever created that says you can be un-Born Again, as this can't happen.   Except in your personal theology, and in all others  who would teach as heresy that the Blood Atonement is dependent on a believer's behavior, instead of on Christ's finished work on the CROSS.  You do understand that teaching that "walking away from God damns a born again believer into Hell" is teaching Legalism?  See, you are teaching that walking or not waling away, which is a self effort, a performance, is what God determines will let you go to Heaven or Hell, so, this is actually denouncing the Blood of Jesus and replacing Him as Savior with ..."walk away to lose your salvation, or keep walking (works), will save you till the END".

This is Galatians 1:8.  This is another Gospel you are phrasing as "God will cut you loose unless you make certain you dont do something that is on my list of don't dos, to keep yourself saved".

Im not certain you can see this, but you really need to try.

So, you have some interesting personal concepts about Salvation, and about believers who Backslide, that the New Testament contradicts, and that the Blood of the Atonement refutes.

Now, if you are going to speak about people who twist the word of God to suit personal ideology disguised as truth, then you need to take a bible and show a verse where it says that the Holy Spirit, who is Christ, who is God, will leave the body of a Believer.  That God will leave his "temple of the Holy Spirit" which is ALL the BORN AGAIN.......... Otherwise, when you are casting the born again into hell using your interesting "God will cut you lose" ideology, you are also casting Christ Himself into hell with that born again Child of God.

And as i told you before, You need to stop trying to teach this to God's redeemed, both in public, and privately.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Behold

[OneLight]

19 minutes ago, Behold said:

 

Until you begin to address what I have brought to you to consider, don't bother replying as you are just repeating yourself and I don't like running in circles.

[Behold]

14 hours ago, OneLight said:

Until you begin to address what I have brought to you to consider, don't bother replying as you are just repeating yourself and I don't like running in circles.

 

I did reply to your comments.     Your last post stated basically 3 comments, and  i responded.

you stated that in your neck of the woods, nobody is teaching that you can lose your salvation.   You mentioned that you believe in the gifts of the spirit as being active today.   you stated that you follow no particular church doctrine, no particular denominational doctrine, (which is the same thing)...  Then you said a few things about teachers of false doctrine. 

So, thats it, i got it all in....

Now lets talk more about your belief that a person's salvation can cease to exist, or as you would define it..." because they walked away and god cut them loose".

Well, this is all the same box of monkeys, its just that you want to present your Legalistic "Christians can burn in hell" theology, as "god cut them loose because they walked away".

So, One Light, reshuffle the deck all you like, but no slight of hand is going to keep me and anyone who reads what you are saying from understanding that you think a Christian can burn in the Lake of Fire with Christ inside them.

Now,  do you want to address all my comments and scriptures ive posted about this, that prove that the born again can't go to hell,  or do you just want to continue to say the same thing over and over that..."a christian can walk away, and god will cut them loose".

See,  you post no real attempt at proving your theology, with a scripture  You dont even post a bible verse, twisted out of context, One Light.  You just state what you believe, and no bible verses are used. 

Im giving you a lot of scriptures that show you that our born again connection with Christ and God as ONE, is not a situation that  can be changed.

Here, let me give you another verse.    Jesus speaking :   "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."   So, let me expound this verse....    Jesus is teaching eternal security.   His defines the Born Again, as ""unto THEM" He gives them eternal life.   And He is able to do this because Jesus Himself IS eternal Life.  So, if we have Jesus ("Christ in you the hope of Glory"), and we are "in Christ"< then we have by Born Again SPIRITUAL UNION, the certainty of always having eternal life.   = NO one, no person, no man, no human being, can remove the born again from their "in Christ" position, or as Jesus defines this, as being in "my hand"..Which of course is God's hand.    Now, here is where the heretics hit a road block.  They do not understand, and have not been taught, probably, that the "No Man", that there is no man who can take the born again out of Jesus's Hand, includes the born again person themselves.     Understand?    Jesus is teaching that no person, including the PERSON themselves, can take themselves , can SEPARATE themselves from Spiritual Union (Born again)..with Christ and God.... What im showing you One Light, and Reader, is that even the born again person themselves, is the "man" that can't separate themselves from God, Christ, and Salvation.

 

Now let me give you  more.   Now think about this Reader, and you tooooo One Light.      Notice this verse.   "all (everyone) who  calls upon the Name of the Lord, shall be SAVED".  Romans 10:13.    So, we should all be able to agree that this verse is talking about becoming saved, born again.   We can expand it to include hearing the Gospel, being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and so forth, but, in the end, this verse dials it in.     Now here is what i want you to notice.   Notice the word "SAVED".... see that word?   It means born again.  It means Blood bought.  It means REDEEMED by the blood of the Lamb.   Sure, most of us here get this, got this, and are Children of God because OF It.  ...But notice now the word...."SAVED".....Notices the last letter in the word is a "D".  And do you know why? Because this means the word is specific to something being FINISHED and DONE.    See that?   SAVED SAVED SAVED... This allows for no other interpretation then.....something has been ACCOMPLISHED< FINISHED, COMPLETED.....    And this is referring to Salvation.   Its is indeed finished.    Completed.   In 2 WAYS..   1.) , IS THAT it was finished by Jesus on the Cross, and proven by His Resurrection, and,  2.)  It is completed upon us, and IN USE, when God gives us this Gift of Salvation, that is "made unto us", by God, through Faith.   So, Salvation , SAVED, is a completed situation, finished by Christ, and also finished upon and in us... because God gave us what is already Finished as the "Free Gift" Of Salvation.    We do not complete by our behavior, what is already finished on the Cross.....= SAVED <.

Now,  think about this.    Regarding Christianity,  Your savior, your literal savior, is whatever you believe keeps you out of Hell.  Follow me?     As Hell is for the unsaved, and Heaven is for the Saved.   So, whatever you are believing keeps you out of Hell, is your personal Savior.  So, to determine this you just find out what you believe KEEPS YOU SAVED, , as this is what you are literally trusting in to keep you out of Hell.   = Your Savior.   Now lets look at a certain Legalistic theology, so that we can see what this type person is trusting in, to keep themselves out of Hell, as this will define their real FAITH.   Lets say this person states that God will cut them loose, their salvation is lost,  if they walk away from God".   So, this person is explaining that what they are actually trusting in to "Keep Him Saved"....= .is that as long as they do not walk away from God. .....   Understand?    This means that this person's savior is themselves, making sure they do not walk away from God, as this is what they believe... This is what they are TRUSTING IN, to  keep them SAVED, and out of Hell.    So, do you see their savior?   Its themselves making sure they do not walk away from God.   Its this self effort that has become their Savior.   Not Jesus.     This person is trusting in their self effort, to KEEP HIM SAVED.      Do you see that?

This is not trusting in Christ, as this person thinks.....This is trusting in themselves, to keep themselves saved, by  "not walking away"......so, the "not walking away", is what they are  doing to keep themselves saved..  Doing this, in their mind is become their Savior.  Its the person trying to save themselves, by  Not doing this.....is what they are TRUSTING IN< to keep them SAVED.     So, do you see their Savior?   Their savior looks back at them from the mirror, everytime they look in one..

Now how about you reader?  If you are to look at your own FAITH.....what are you trusting in to KEEP YOU SAVED?    "Well, i trusted in the Lord to Save Me"........NO.  I didnt ask you that.  I asked you what you are trusting in, right now,  to KEEP YOU SAVED.   AND if you are like some Legalists, and say......"well as long as i dont sin willfully, as long as i dont walk away from God, as long as i keep my faith, as long as i dont DO THAT THING that i believe will cause me to be LOST"....So, Whatever that thing is, is not JESUS, it is your self effort, and so, you are trying to save yourself.   And this is "fallen from Grace", which happened to you,  just as soon as you became convinced that something that you can do will cause you to be lost, is now become your SAVIOR because you are now trusting that not doing that thing,  is what will  KEEP YOU SAVED.   So, there is your Savior., and its not Jesus.

Think about that.  Make the correction you need to make, if you are not ONLY Trusting in Christ to Save you and KEEP YOU SAVED, as if you are not, then you are actually not trusting in Christ, at all.

Ok One Light,  whenever you have some verses you want to show us, that you believe  proves that the New Testament said that "walking away from Christ, loses your salvation, because God will cut you loose"..  So, when you can find that verse, that is LITERAL< and not some Symbolic Verse,   then do post it, as im curious to see how you taught yourself this interesting ideology. And once i see it, or them, i'll get back to you.

 

B

Edited October 31, 2019 by Behold

[OneLight]

@Behold - you are correct.  I mistook this thread with the other thread where we are discussing sin.  I will get back to your two posts as soon as I can.

[OneLight]

15 hours ago, Behold said:

LIke i told you, all Pentecostal - Charismatic denominations, and the Methodists, and the Catholics and others .... teach, according to their doctrinal statement of faith, that you can lost your salvation.   Or as you prefer it to be phrased, "walk away from God and be cut loose".  Also, all denominations that teach that the predestined elect are the only saved, and  God  chooses some for hell, ...these fringe cults that teach this  hellish stuff claiming to be part of Christ's body,  also teach that you can undo your salvation by your misbehavior, or as you teach it, "walk away and God cuts you loose".

It seems you refuse to see the difference between loosing your salvation and refusing to followo Jesus any longer, therefore turning your back on salvation.  This is the only reason why you don't see this as a possibility.

Also, you sure give a huge blanket statement about "all Pentecostal - Charismatic denominations, and the Methodists, and the Catholics and others .... teach, according to their doctrinal statement of faith, that you can lost your salvation."  First, a very high percentage of blanket statements are a lie.  You say "All" as if you have read every single churches doctrine in the denominations you speak against.  Second, please provide the evidence that supports this accusation.

15 hours ago, Behold said:

One Light, this is actually known  to most of us as "backsliding", so i guess you have concluded that backsliding is being lost ????, ....until what?     

Do you not recognize that you can't be a backslider unless you are a CHRISTIAN?    So, you are still a Christian, One Light, or you can't be a backslider....   Do you comprehend?

Now as i told JLB and as i'll ask you.    You do understand that God in you, as Christ and the Holy Spirit, is not something that you can undo.   As you didnt put them there.   Do you follow me?

See, when a person is born again, they become the container OF and for God.   "Christ in You"... The Holy Spirit in you. And God Himself, as all are ONE, designates you as HIS TEMPLE to Indwell.

This is Eternal.  This is not temporary, part time, or on occasion.

I know what backsliding is, which is a common phrase that has been around longer than I have been a Christian.  You will find your answer if you read Revelation 3:1-6.   You tell me what is meant by someones name being blotted out, or erased from the Book of Life.  How would that come about, according tho these passages.  Please note that in the other thread I gave you a more descriptive answer - you can refer to that post.   There were no other questions that cannot be answered by what I posted in this reply.

Let's make a decision as to which thread we should continue in.  This one or the one titled Dealing with your sin, as we are discussing the same issues in both.  I suggest the other thread should be where we continue this discussion as this thread's focus was on Paul being the only pattern of salvation, not how we deal with sin.