iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 36 minutes ago, dhchristian said: Here in is your character flaw. Do you see how you are negating by saying "you cannot rearrange", yet you do so yourself by placing parenthesis around passages. Same darn thing occurs when you use parenthesis, you rearrange revelation. I Never negated your parenthesis, I was shown a framework that allows for rearranging in a logical and chronological way that is not linear, but three dimensional. Why was I shown this? Because as someone who design and builds things I am able to grasp images on two dimensional drawings in three dimensions. Think of a floor plan of a house. Most people who see one can visualize rooms and doors in them, But they cannot visualize the whole house, and the roof design from the floor plan, let alone vaults in the ceilings, window heights, architectural details, etc. You need another drawing of the house, such as elevations to show you these things. so the elevation drawing is still the same house from a different perspective. Now if You have a front elevation you also need a back elevation and the two sides to get all the exterior details. All still drawings of the same house. Then you have electrical and mechanical plans sometimes is a reflected ceiling plan so it is kind of a reverse image, which shows the placement of lighting and other ceiling features. Well, Revelation is the same way, and there is no need to guess where to throw parenthesis around passages. The chronology is not just the floor plan, But all of the drawing working together then the whole house comes together. Somany eschatology teachers only have on drawing and the rest is a guess. What I am trying to show you is that framework. This triangulation being the very basic part of it that locks it all together. Think of the rapture as one of those "elevation" drawings, well there are others that are like this elevation but from a different perspective, all the same house, and all showing the "vertical" details of how we go up, and how others that are diverse from "we" go up. Triangulation is fine, if all your three parts are correct: but if one is off, then the answer is off. You have at least one of your triangulation points off, so of course your answer is off. Sorry, but your theory does not line up with other scriptures. Dan. 9:27 shows us an event that divides the week into two halves. Paul tells us what that event is: the man of sin entering the temple. John marks that exact moment with the 7th trumpet. This is backed up by five mentions of the last half of the week given in days, in months and in times - all in three chapters: midpoint chapters. Jesus tells us people will flee when they see the abomination. We see that fleeing in 12:6. It is triangulation from solid scripture, correctly understood - and from many different verses. How can one misunderstand dividing in half - especially when God gives us 7 scriptures to prove it? How can one misunderstand fleeing? It is a very basic concept. How can one misunderstand that forcing people to worship an image upon threat of death, is great tribulation? Forcing people to take a mark that will lead to the lake of fire, and beheading if one refuses, is great tribulation. OF COURSE the actual events are going to come after God's warning (chapter 14) and after God shows John the beheaded (from the days of GT) in chapter 15. Your theory must ignore all this proof. The 7th trumpet, in chapter 11, is locked solidly in place as a midpoint chapter because of the 1260 days of fleeing (proving it is midpoint) and the 42 months of authority proving it is midpoint. Next, a parenthesis does not rearrange anything, but is necessary for proper understanding. Sorry, it is not a character flaw either. It is far better than moving trumpets! I don't buy your three dimensions. This is a revealing, not a hiding. God took John from his time straight through time to the end. I am amazed that you cannot see that, for most of the church sees it. Why was I shown this? Why did Jesus show me that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and that I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked," and that exact midpoint would be "very close" to the five mentions of the 3.5 years mentioned in chapters 11 - 13? Why would Jesus show me something that would conflict with what He showed you? "Houston, we have a problem!" This triangulation being the very basic part of it that locks it all together. I have another triangulation that fits all end times scriptures. Your theory makes Revelation very complicated: God did not make it so.Your theory forces you to rearrange, mine does not. Your theory places the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the first half, while John (and the rest of the church) places it in the second half. You and I are going to continue to disagree. If you insist on rearranging, your theory will be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 2 hours ago, dhchristian said: No One person receives the entirety of the counsel of God. I Have neither negated nor confirmed the seventh trumpet being the midpoint of the final week. You may be right on this, But you are confusing me with others re: negation of this. This actually works in my timeline, if the time of the seventh trump is an extended period of time. I cannot confirm nor deny this yet. Meaning the day of the LORD is an extended period of time, such as the Flood was. Interaction refines what each of us is given, to make a picture of the whole come to light. Let's say seven people are given a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. Well until they come together, they will never see the whole picture the puzzle makes. They can observe the piece they have, and theorize as to what it means, But until they take their piece with the other people with their pieces and they begin to try and fit the pieces together, all they are doing is guessing as to what the rest of the puzzle looks like. When those guesses become your doctrine is when you will fall into error, because you have negated pieces others were given. That is where you stand right now. Your guesses are your doctrine, and you are unable to learn from others what the LORD has given them. A trumpet sound can only be as long as someone's breath! It is not a long extended period of time. I understand, events that are triggered by a trumpet blast can take a while, but the 7th trumpet is only a marker: marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple, and marking the time the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus. That can be done very quickly. Most of the church world sees the Day of the Lord as an extended period of time. I do also. It starts at the 6th seal and so the wrath of God continues on through the entire 70th week. It is all the wrath of God as proven by Old Testament scriptures and by Revelation. I am sorry, but your "piece" of this puzzle seems to come from a different puzzle! It simply does not fit. Case in point: John as the days of GT starting after God's warning in chapter 14, while you insist it is the first half of the week. John lays out all the future events in a very linear fashion, while you insist there are 3 dimensional layers. You imagine I am guessing! No, I am not guessing. I received revelation knowledge of John's timeliine. I know he wrote straight through time as much as possible when some events are parallel. You imagine the 7th trumpet is the end, while God and John put it at the midpoint. I cannot see your piece of the puzzle fitting anywhere in the Revelation puzzle. Until your theory includes the midpoint of the week in chapter 11, caused by the abomination that divides the week, The Day of the Lord starting before the week, the entire week coming with God's wrath, and the days of GT coming in the second half of the week, you and I will continue to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, dhchristian said: I Have many times. On this site as well. I told you of the correction I received from the preterists some time back, which led to this word of Knowledge. I Used to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The Lord corrects me daily as he disciplines me as a son. He also shows me things from the Word of God daily, the Word of God is alive. To deny these things is to deny Him. I cannot do that. I have known these things for some time now, but only now am being able to explain and defend them. Like I said before, to you, that is how I know these things are from Him, they are bigger than my understanding to grasp them and explain them properly. It takes months, sometimes years to fully understand what he shows me in days through the Holy Ghost and the Word of God. When He first showed me these things I could only explain them in terms of analogy, an artwork being painted by a master artist, Now he is showing me how to triangulate to explain these things to others who will hear. I Am quite surprised, you as a Pentecostal do not understand this. How interesting: I STILL believe in a pretrib rapture! I also know there are many denominations, each thinking they have the truth, and the others do not, and each thinking at the beginning that THEY heard from God and so they have the truth. The real truth is, they may have heard something from God, but they heard from some other source for their doctrine. God is certainly not the author of division. It is very plain: people THINK they hear when in fact, it is their imagination. It is the only explanation for so many doctrinal differences. You think you heard from God; I think I heard from God: yet our theories are as different as night from day. It should be clear, someone has hearing problems. Can you explain why God would show John a group of people too large to number from the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, in chapter 7, when John saw the beheaded (from the same days of GT) begin to show up in chapter 15? Why if they come from the very same source at the very same time? Can you explain why God would show John the beast emerging in chapter 13, the false prophet that forces people to take the mark, in chapter 13, what they will do to create great tribulation in chapter 13, but the actual days of GT they create back in the seals as you propose? Your theories do great damage to John's book. It is why I cannot believe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, dhchristian said: You are using the natural to explain the supernatural. As a Pentecostal I am surprised you fall for this. When darkness was upon the earth at the crucifixion, was this an eclipse? No way it could have been, as this was during the full moon of Passover and eclipses cannot happen during a full moon. So this was a supernatural darkening of the Sun. If you were on the other side of the planet, the moon would not give its light. No offense, But you are so set in your own ways, you are incapable of learning, which is why the debate here is useless. We have been over this point before, and you will never arrive at the truth because you are incapable of interacting with others. Instead you only wish to dictate your beliefs on others. You are assuming you have the truth and I don't. Seeing the sun and moon are very natural events. A bank president teaches a clerk everything they know about REAL money, so when the see a counterfeit, they instantly recognize it. Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, iamlamad said: Triangulation is fine, if all your three parts are correct: but if one is off, then the answer is off. You have at least one of your triangulation points off, so of course your answer is off. Sorry, but your theory does not line up with other scriptures. Dan. 9:27 shows us an event that divides the week into two halves. Paul tells us what that event is: the man of sin entering the temple. John marks that exact moment with the 7th trumpet. This is backed up by five mentions of the last half of the week given in days, in months and in times - all in three chapters: midpoint chapters. Dan. 9:27 shows us an event that divides the week into two halves. I Agree. I disagree with the way some translations translate Midst of, as opposed to for half of the week. Been over this before with you, and the way I read it is confirmed by Jesus who puts the Abomination at the beginning of the week in the Olivet discourse. This is backed up by five mentions of the last half of the week given in days, in months and in times - all in three chapters: midpoint chapters. Have you ever read Isaiah? What chapters speak of Jesus' first advent? They are throughout the book. Just now, iamlamad said: Jesus tells us people will flee when they see the abomination. We see that fleeing in 12:6. It is triangulation from solid scripture, correctly understood - and from many different verses. How can one misunderstand dividing in half - especially when God gives us 7 scriptures to prove it? How can one misunderstand fleeing? It is a very basic concept. How can one misunderstand that forcing people to worship an image upon threat of death, is great tribulation? Forcing people to take a mark that will lead to the lake of fire, and beheading if one refuses, is great tribulation. OF COURSE the actual events are going to come after God's warning (chapter 14) and after God shows John the beheaded (from the days of GT) in chapter 15. Your theory must ignore all this proof. The 7th trumpet, in chapter 11, is locked solidly in place as a midpoint chapter because of the 1260 days of fleeing (proving it is midpoint) and the 42 months of authority proving it is midpoint. When is the fleeing in the Olivet discourse? Right when the abomination happens which is at the beginning of the week. Which Puts Rev. 12:6 right at the beginning of the week. You obviously cannot see it. Just now, iamlamad said: Next, a parenthesis does not rearrange anything, but is necessary for proper understanding. Sorry, it is not a character flaw either. It is far better than moving trumpets! I don't buy your three dimensions. This is a revealing, not a hiding. God took John from his time straight through time to the end. I am amazed that you cannot see that, for most of the church sees it. rubbish. Your parenthesis on rev. 12:1-5 rips this out of revelation and places them at the first advent. So you are doing exactly what I am doing. Just now, iamlamad said: Why was I shown this? Why did Jesus show me that I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and that I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked," and that exact midpoint would be "very close" to the five mentions of the 3.5 years mentioned in chapters 11 - 13? Why would Jesus show me something that would conflict with what He showed you? "Houston, we have a problem!" That is just chance. any 1260 day period has a beginning and an end. You were shown the end of these 1260 day periods. For example the two witnesses begin their ministry when? and they end their ministry when? I believe they end their ministry at the sixth trumpet. Why because they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit at the fifth trumpet. But of course you do not see this beast as diverse from the beast of rev. 13. Because you can't make it fit into your theory. Just now, iamlamad said: This triangulation being the very basic part of it that locks it all together. I have another triangulation that fits all end times scriptures. Your theory makes Revelation very complicated: God did not make it so.Your theory forces you to rearrange, mine does not. Your theory places the days of GT Jesus spoke of in the first half, while John (and the rest of the church) places it in the second half. You and I are going to continue to disagree. If you insist on rearranging, your theory will be proven wrong. No, Your logic is full of Holes. I Am limiting my responses to you because I do not want to embarrass you. There are plenty of theories out there that place the GT in the first half of the week, do an image search and you will find some of revelation timelines. But I do not usually invoke the fallacy ad Populum when I debate. This is not a popularity study here, and because many people believe one way does not mean it is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Until your theory includes the midpoint of the week in chapter 11, caused by the abomination that divides the week, The Day of the Lord starting before the week, the entire week coming with God's wrath, and the days of GT coming in the second half of the week, you and I will continue to disagree. My mid point is the coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds, with great glory. He comes as savior to the redeemed and in wrath to the wicked. This is simultaneous with the rapture of the two witnesses, and Jesus Kills the beast with the brightness of His coming and the breath of his mouth. All fits perfectly. Olivet discourse, 2 Thess. 2, Rev. 11, etc. Remember. according to my framework, rev. 12:1 starts a new vision of the characters. So here we jump back to the first advent (Your parenthesis), then jump to the beginning of the final week with the fleeing, the dragon being cast down to earth the rise of the beast, and the false prophet. I can even tell you Satan's short while is 1260 days. This vision then ends with the gathering of the wheat, the 144,ooo, and the winepress of wrath. I cannot see your pieces of the puzzle fitting anywhere in the Revelation puzzle. As I said before You are unteachable. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, iamlamad said: You are assuming you have the truth and I don't. I could say the same of You. Can the teacher be taught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 53 minutes ago, dhchristian said: My mid point is the coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds, with great glory. He comes as savior to the redeemed and in wrath to the wicked. This is simultaneous with the rapture of the two witnesses, and Jesus Kills the beast with the brightness of His coming and the breath of his mouth. All fits perfectly. Olivet discourse, 2 Thess. 2, Rev. 11, etc. Remember. according to my framework, rev. 12:1 starts a new vision of the characters. So here we jump back to the first advent (Your parenthesis), then jump to the beginning of the final week with the fleeing, the dragon being cast down to earth the rise of the beast, and the false prophet. I can even tell you Satan's short while is 1260 days. This vision then ends with the gathering of the wheat, the 144,ooo, and the winepress of wrath. I cannot see your pieces of the puzzle fitting anywhere in the Revelation puzzle. As I said before You are unteachable. God Bless. My mid point is the coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds, with great glory. How amazing: you expect to teach me this? You think I am unteachable: it is because of what you are trying to teach me! You certainly cannot teach me anything false- Just like a good bank teller can instantly recognize a fake bill. Why would your midpoint be His coming? There is only ONE VERSE that tells us the midpoint: found in Daniel 9: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The Hebrew for "midst" means to divide in half. Daniel is telling us an event that stops the sacrifices will divide the week. Nothing about any coming of the Messiah or the King. The "he" here is referring back to the prince that destroyed Jerusalem. Please explain how or why you see a "coming" here. John puts His coming with great glory in chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished. You put his coming at the midpoint. Your theories simply don't agree with John. Do you then put chapter 19 that shows His coming as the midpoint of the week? Another verse that touches on this event is when Jesus said that those that see this abomination must flee instantly. We see that in 12:6 - proving again that chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter. This is one piece of my puzzle. When ANYONE outside of the High Priest - and him only once a year - would enter the holy of holies, that is going to stop the sacrifices. The temple will have to be cleansed with a red heifer. This is what Paul tells us: the man of sin is going to enter the temple and declare his is God. This is going to stop the sacrifices - just as Daniel said. So it is going to be at the midpoint since it is the event that will divide the week. Since every mention of the 3.5 years in Revelation is a countdown from the midpoint, then the midpoint of the week must be found in chapters 11-13. I place it at the 7th trumpet. Also these countdowns tie these three chapters together as midpoint chapters. They cannot be moved, nor can some "thing" such as a trumpet be moved from inside one of these chapters. The very fact that the fleeing is in 12:6 proves there is no jump back or forward or anywhere else! 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination at the 7th trumpet. It is only seconds after the man of sin will enter the temple. The war in heaven will come only seconds after the 7th trumpet because that is Michael's signal to begin. Sorry, my brother, but your theory simply does not hold water. These three chapters, 11-13 are tied together and cannot be separated: they follow an exact chronology: The man of sin arrives in Jerusalem 11:1-2 The two witnesses arrive because the man of sin arrived. The man of sin enters the temple: it is the abomination Jesus spoke of Those in judea flee There is war in haven and the devil is cast down. The devil immediately possesses the man of sin who turns beast. John sees the beast rise The False prophet arrives in Jerusalem The beast and false prophet cause the people to erect an image The Beast and false prophet create a mark. God warns people not to take the mark The image and mark begin to be enforced: it is the days of GT Jesus spoke of Chapter 15: the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. Chapter 16; God pours out the vials of His wrath to shorten the days of GT. You seem to think this is all mixed up into some kind of three dimensional picture. It is not: it is as straight forward as a history book. Your theory will be proven wrong. I am going to stick very closely to what is written AS it is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 56 minutes ago, dhchristian said: I could say the same of You. Can the teacher be taught? Of course, most people that write here believe they are right: perhaps you, I and RM are most insistent that they have the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dhchristian said: Dan. 9:27 shows us an event that divides the week into two halves. I Agree. I disagree with the way some translations translate Midst of, as opposed to for half of the week. Been over this before with you, and the way I read it is confirmed by Jesus who puts the Abomination at the beginning of the week in the Olivet discourse. This is backed up by five mentions of the last half of the week given in days, in months and in times - all in three chapters: midpoint chapters. Have you ever read Isaiah? What chapters speak of Jesus' first advent? They are throughout the book. When is the fleeing in the Olivet discourse? Right when the abomination happens which is at the beginning of the week. Which Puts Rev. 12:6 right at the beginning of the week. You obviously cannot see it. rubbish. Your parenthesis on rev. 12:1-5 rips this out of revelation and places them at the first advent. So you are doing exactly what I am doing. That is just chance. any 1260 day period has a beginning and an end. You were shown the end of these 1260 day periods. For example the two witnesses begin their ministry when? and they end their ministry when? I believe they end their ministry at the sixth trumpet. Why because they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit at the fifth trumpet. But of course you do not see this beast as diverse from the beast of rev. 13. Because you can't make it fit into your theory. No, Your logic is full of Holes. I Am limiting my responses to you because I do not want to embarrass you. There are plenty of theories out there that place the GT in the first half of the week, do an image search and you will find some of revelation timelines. But I do not usually invoke the fallacy ad Populum when I debate. This is not a popularity study here, and because many people believe one way does not mean it is true. You are right here: the prewrathers put the days of GT in the seals. If you point out a hole, then I get to point out a hole. Perhaps the readers can choose which theory they think best fits. Here is a glaring hole: you think Jesus put the abomination at the beginning of the week. I say He skipped over the first half of the week. Daniel tells us the event that stops the sacrifices will divide the week. John puts the abomination in the middle of the week, chapters 11-13. We are not talking about Isaiah, we are talking about Revelation: two different books written differently. Which Puts Rev. 12:6 right at the beginning of the week. You obviously cannot see it. Of course I cannot see it because it is flaky! The countdowns START AT THE MIDPOINT. Or do you think all these countdowns are in the first half of the week? My parenthesis, and John's parenthesis, starts in verse 4. That leaves verses 1 through 3 inside John's chronology. Edited November 11, 2019 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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