John's 7 visions and triangulating with other scriptures

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Daniel 9:24 gives a list of things that have to happen which cannot happen while the beast is ruling in Jerusalem and the sacrifices and oblations have ceased for the first half of the week. There is the regathering of the children of Jacob from the four corners of the earth, there is the Spirits of the beast, the dragon and the false prophet being sent out to gather the nations for Armageddon, before this the Euphrates river must dry up to make a way for the kings of the east, Not to mention the destructions in rev. 17-18. 

 

The great tribulation consists of all the first fives seals unrestrained as well as the trumpets. Think of it like the seals are the contractions of labor, they never stop at child birth they intensify, and added to this are the pains of child birth itself, Trumpets 1-6. The church has been in Labor since the time of the Apostles, and they even said so (Gal. 4:19, 1 Thess. 2:9, Rev. 1:9) during the birthing process those pains will increase, become more numerous.... For example if you refuse the mark of the beast, How will you buy food? Or how will you access health care for disease? Satan will offer you the pain killer to relieve the pain if you worship his man and take his mark. But because creation itself is groaning in labor with us, this will not work, as the birth must occur. Joy Awaits those who endure to the end.  

Regathering of Israel: See the Gathering of the elect in Matthew 24: it will not take long. 

Spirits sent out: Again, this won't take long: it happens at the 6th vial. It may take some time for the actually gathering. There will be some time between the 7th vial that ends the week and Christ's return to Armageddon. Between the 6th vial and Christ's return will be plenty of time for the armies of the world to gather - including the kings of the East.

I think it would be far more beneficial for correct doctrine to take the scriptures about this time literally rather then trying to form doctrine from one thought from one verse such as birth pains. Paul wrote, in 1 Thes. 5: "as travail upon a woman with child." Note carefully the word "AS."

Matthew 24 says "these are the beginnings of birth pain." What exact is being "birthed?" It would be the millennial reign of Christ on earth." The actually birth then does not come until Satan is bound, or perhaps the final vial with the worst earthquake ever. 

My point is this: Revelation lays out the ENTIRE 70th week in great detail, while Jesus only gave us the beginnings of the birth pains and the START of the days of GT. He did not cover the whole time of GT nor the end; only that it WOULD end a little shorter than the Beast's 42 months. God has therefore given us the blueprints of what is to come, but you would rather form doctrine from isolated parts of a very few verses. Then you wonder why I do not accept your theories. For example:

You seem to cover the first five seals once, as in beginnings of labor pains, then cover them AGAIN as the days of GT.  In doing this, you totally ignore the rest of the book that outlines first that it will be the Beast and False prophet that CAUSE the days of GT, and they do this by forcing people to bow to an image on the threat of death or accept the mark on threat of death. 

By the way, speaking of the MARK, how would anyone know NOT to take the mark, unless God's warning came first?  How would it cause "great pressure" or GT if no one knows the penalty of taking the mark? The great pressure comes from KNOWING that accepting the mark will doom them to fire and brimstone forever!  Therefore, I submit that God's warning MUST COME FIRST.

Notice John's Chronology:

John is introduced first to the Dragon that will be behind it all.
Then He is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet whom the Dragon will use.
Then he is told exactly what the Beast and False Prophet will do to cause those days of GT: the image and mark.
Then God gives the warning about the mark - not to mention what God requires during these days:  WORSHIP HIM!
Then, finally, in chapter 15, the beheaded begin to show up in heaven.

This progression proves that the days of GT don't even start until after the warning.

So how do you get to your theory that is in error?

You miss interpret these verses:

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  (Church age: beginning of sorrows)

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.  (Church age: beginning of sorrows)

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.  (Church age: beginning of sorrows)

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (Church age: beginning of sorrows)

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  (Church age: beginning of sorrows)

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  (Finally mention of the end)

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (What must happen before the end - when Jesus returns)

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

You fail to understand there is a PAUSE a change in direction between these to verses. Verse 14 ENDS THE AGE: "then shall the end come." Jesus has taken the read from HIS TIME on through the church age to the end. (PAUSE: a new direction is coming) Then Jesus backs up to the most important part of what is coming: the days of GT and how and when they begin: with the abomination. 

You assume there is nothing between "the end" of Jewish time and the days of GT. 

Your first error is this: "the end" in verse 14 is not the rapture that ends the Gentile Church age. It is the end of the JEWISH age, or the end of the 7 years of tribulation, when Jesus returns.  Therefore a change in thought or direction is REQUIRED for the next verse. Jesus has to BACK UP from "the end: the 7th vial" to the midpoint of the week. 

Your second error is imagining there will be no events  between the end of verse 14 and the start of verse 15. Revelation proves there ARE events between. There is the first half of the week. You cannot form doctrine from ONE VERSE! What you are going to do with Daniel 9:27 that shows HALF THE WEEK will be without the daily sacrifices? How do we get "half the week?" Because the event that causes the end of the sacrifices DIVIDES the week. Daniel TELLS us this.  This is proven over and over and over and over and over and over and over: two times Daniel mentions the half week and 5 times John mentions it.  So we have 7  proofs that SOMETHING divided the week. Daniel, Paul and John tell us what it is that will divide the week: the abomination: when the man of sin (probably a Gentile but certainly NOT the High Priest) will enter the Jewish temple and declare he is God. And immediately after that those in Judea will begin to flee.  Daniel covered a TYPE of this in Antiochus setting up an image of Zeus in the most holy place in the temple - an event that stopped the daily sacrifices then for many days.

Since we have 5 mentions of the half week in chapters 11 through 13 of Revelation, that is proof these are midpoint chapters and cannot be moved. These chapters contain the starting point of 5 parallel paths to the end of the week. (I know, you think [in error] only 4)

Another failure: you have the days of GT BEFORE the Beast has been revealed. You have the days of GT BEFORE the False Prophet shows up.  Your theory is therefore impossible because it is these characters that will CAUSE those days of GT. 

the pains of child birth itself, Trumpets 1-6.   Sorry, but one error leads to more.  The birth is not complete until Satan is bound and the Millennial reign begins. Therefore the childbirth (if you insist on using this comparison) will include the vials of God's wrath also.

The church has been in Labor since the time of the Apostles  Finally something I can almost agree with: it is not the church in labor, it is the earth itself and everything on it feeling the beginnings of sorrow. 

Sorry, but your verses in Paul are about birthing CHURCHES, not the birth pains of birthing the Millennial reign. 

Satan will offer you the pain killer to relieve the pain if you worship his man and take his mark.  See? You are admitting what I have been saying all along: the days of GT must come AFTER John telling us what CAUSES the days of GT. You insist on rearranging and as I have said all along, your theory is suspect and will be proven wrong. Your theory requires chapter 13 to be before the seals!  DH, I really cannot understand why it is SO DIFFICULT for readers to take Revelation AS WRITTEN.  So many feel they must rearrange. 

[dhchristian]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Note carefully the word "AS."

The Word has been noted, A simile uses the word like or as to explain something more complex. Just like the feasts are a shadow of things to come.…

On that point I would like to ask you a question, Where are the fall feasts in your timeline? I Have heard them explained by pre-tribbers, but how do you see them?

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Spirits sent out: Again, this won't take long: it happens at the 6th vial. It may take some time for the actually gathering. There will be some time between the 7th vial that ends the week and Christ's return to Armageddon. Between the 6th vial and Christ's return will be plenty of time for the armies of the world to gather - including the kings of the East.

You have no idea of military logistics, I suggest you do some research. It took 9 months to gather 800,000 troops in the gulf war, with modern means. Logistics for D-day took years.

Will go over rest later. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Word has been noted, A simile uses the word like or as to explain something more complex. Just like the feasts are a shadow of things to come.…

On that point I would like to ask you a question, Where are the fall feasts in your timeline? I Have heard them explained by pre-tribbers, but how do you see them?

You have no idea of military logistics, I suggest you do some research. It took 9 months to gather 800,000 troops in the gulf war, with modern means. Logistics for D-day took years.

Will go over rest later. 

The fall feasts are 

The Feast of Trumpets, then the ten days of awe.

The Day of Atonement comes next, followed by the Feast of booths or Tabernacles or Feast of ingathering. 

I think the "last trump" is the final trumpet blast of the Feast of trumpets, so the rapture fulfills this feast - at the 6th seal (a moment before).

The ten days of awe, I believe, will be between the 6th seal and the 7th. The 7th seal, starting the 70th week will fulfill the day of Atonement. The Jews are going to have to do some serious reflection and repentance.  We will be tabernacling with God from the moment of the rapture. But here this feast may be fulfilled when we return with Christ and become judges in His reign.

I was going to say the birth pains are only a simile, but there really is a birth coming: the Millennial reign. 

Here is a snippit of troop or people movement:  " The C-5, along with other Air Force transport aircraft, airlifted almost a half-million passengers and more than 577,000 tons (519,300 metric tons) of cargo. This included 15 air-transportable hospitals and the more than 5,000 medical personnel to run them, and more than 211 tons (189.9 metric tons) of mail to and from the men and women in the Middle East - each day."

If the devil is behind it - and he will be - I think 2 months will be sufficient to move millions of trumpets from anywhere to Israel. However, as I said before, no one really knows how much time there is going to be between the 6th vial and Jesus' return. You do make a very good point: WHERE will these troops land and gather? Will an Israeli air field be the first thing captured?

Added later: "Nearly 472,800 people and approximately 465,000 tons of cargo were deployed to the Persian Gulf in eight months."  From website on "Desert Storm."

Edited November 22, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

DH, Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you take the book of Revelation as a collection of events with very little or no timing or time line, and it is up the the reader to determine any timeline if there is one.  Is this correct?

[dhchristian]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:04 PM, iamlamad said:

I think the "last trump" is the final trumpet blast of the Feast of trumpets, so the rapture fulfills this feast - at the 6th seal (a moment before).

Who then is gathered at the feast of ingathering? 

When does the Birth of the Sons of God happen as spoken of in Romans 8?

On 11/22/2019 at 4:04 PM, iamlamad said:

If the devil is behind it - and he will be - I think 2 months will be sufficient to move millions of trumpets from anywhere to Israel. However, as I said before, no one really knows how much time there is going to be between the 6th vial and Jesus' return. You do make a very good point: WHERE will these troops land and gather? Will an Israeli air field be the first thing captured?

Added later: "Nearly 472,800 people and approximately 465,000 tons of cargo were deployed to the Persian Gulf in eight months."  From website on "Desert Storm."

Your timeline does not allow for two months, only 30 days, we are also not talking about 500,000, but 200 million Men, and the approximate ton of cargo required to move that many, about 200million tons. Most cargo planes can carry 350 tons per load on average, that comes out to 571,429 round trip flights just for the cargo. The U.S. Military the largest in the world has approximately 700 transport aircraft, at about 2 roundtrip flights a day, = 409 days, of nonstop flights. That is just the cargo, not the troops themselves. At 400 troops per flight that same number of aircraft would take about 360 days. This is all by plane which is the fastest means of transport. A 200million man army is a logistical nightmare, and even with all the aircraft in the world being used this would take many months. Throw in the fact that the population will be reduced by 1/4, and 1/3 and you will likely not have enough pilots to fly those missions or even planes being destroyed by wars you will not have the same number of planes. Ships and trains are slow, though they can move more cargo, but a 1/3 of the earths ships will be destroyed by then, and all the earthquakes and the rail line will be in disarray. That leaves only horseback as a viable form of transportation.  

You should be getting the idea here.

On 11/22/2019 at 7:58 PM, iamlamad said:

DH, Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like you take the book of Revelation as a collection of events with very little or no timing or time line, and it is up the the reader to determine any timeline if there is one.  Is this correct?

The timeline is one of overlapping visions. Each vision is ordered as it was given. If you read my OP you will see this. It is like a painting being painted (think Bob Ross on PBS) first you have the broad strokes of the background, and then the foreground, and then the characters, and then the battles etc. There is order, but there is overlap between the visions. It is a three dimensional timeline, that encompasses, what is past, and what is (at the time of John's writing) and what is to come in the future. This is how I can endorse what you say about the seals and yet add to that, that the trumpets coincide with the first 5 seals. 

[dhchristian]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:32 PM, iamlamad said:

You fail to understand there is a PAUSE a change in direction between these to verses. Verse 14 ENDS THE AGE: "then shall the end come." Jesus has taken the read from HIS TIME on through the church age to the end. (PAUSE: a new direction is coming) Then Jesus backs up to the most important part of what is coming: the days of GT and how and when they begin: with the abomination. 

You assume there is nothing between "the end" of Jewish time and the days of GT. 

Your first error is this: "the end" in verse 14 is not the rapture that ends the Gentile Church age. It is the end of the JEWISH age, or the end of the 7 years of tribulation, when Jesus returns.  Therefore a change in thought or direction is REQUIRED for the next verse. Jesus has to BACK UP from "the end: the 7th vial" to the midpoint of the week. 

You assume there is something between verse 14 and 15. you cannot prove there is or there isn't anything, but your presumptions force you to insert something there. I Use scripture to interpret scripture, 2 thess 2 states the falling away and the revelation of the lawless one declaring himself God, an abomination which occurs in the holy place, come FIRST. You say there is some sort of secret covenant that is made at the beginning of the week, which contradicts 2 thess. 2 which clearly states The antichrist will be revealed, at least to those who love the truth. It is so hard for you to let go of the pre-tribulation rapture, that you must insert something to make all scripture make sense. I Do not need to insert or add parenthesis anywhere, nor to subtract anything. The Word of God is complete, and inerrant. 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You assume there is something between verse 14 and 15. you cannot prove there is or there isn't anything, but your presumptions force you to insert something there. I Use scripture to interpret scripture, 2 thess 2 states the falling away and the revelation of the lawless one declaring himself God, an abomination which occurs in the holy place, come FIRST. You say there is some sort of secret covenant that is made at the beginning of the week, which contradicts 2 thess. 2 which clearly states The antichrist will be revealed, at least to those who love the truth. It is so hard for you to let go of the pre-tribulation rapture, that you must insert something to make all scripture make sense. I Do not need to insert or add parenthesis anywhere, nor to subtract anything. The Word of God is complete, and inerrant. 

 

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

(What is here - if anything?)

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

One cannot get past "the end" of the Jewish age unless they are talking about chapter 20 in Revelation, which is into the Millennial Reign of Christ. Therefore verse 14 ENDs a subject (the Jewish age) and verse 15 starts another subject: the final week of the Jewish age. Nothing is mentioned in Matthew 24 from "church age" (Jewish age stopped when God chose Paul to take the gospel to the Gentiles) to the abomination: verse 15.

Daniel 9:27 tells us that SOME EVENT will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two halves. If someone believes it only is talking about half the week, makes no difference: to get to half a week the week must be divided. Seven verses in the bible mention a half week. 

In Revelation we see the church age ends before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord. Where then is the abomination in Revelation? John did not see it so did not write of it. But no matter, we can find it anyway: Jesus said those that SEE the abomination and live in Judea must FLEE - and we see that fleeing in 12:6. Therefore we know that the abomination event happened seconds before 12:6. If you choose anywhere in chapter 11 for the abomination I would not argue. 

Therefore, what happens in chapter 10, and chapter 9, and chapter 8? ARe these church age to match Matthew 24 before verse 15? No, they cannot be because the church age ends at the 6th seal.

It seems someone has painted themselves into a corner and is trapped. Other scriptures PROVE events happen after the church age but before the abomination. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Where then is the abomination in Revelation?

Rev 13:5-6 is the abomination of desolation. The Abomination of desolation is a time of abominations that lasts for 42 months, that begins with the Antichrist declaring himself God in the Holy Place. I Would think you agree with this, but just disagree with my timing on when this occurs. I Say it occurs at the start of the final week, you say at the middle of the week. I think Jesus was clear, that it was at the beginning of the week and the time of abominations lasts for Half of the week. The covenant itself is for a week, but is immediately broken by the Antichrist when he declares himself God in the Holy Place hence this is a covenant with death. Israel must deal with this by fleeing. The Covenant is broken by Jesus returning and destroying the beast, the Kingdom of the Antichrist, by the brightness of his coming and the breath of his mouth. 

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Who then is gathered at the feast of ingathering? 

When does the Birth of the Sons of God happen as spoken of in Romans 8?

Your timeline does not allow for two months, only 30 days, we are also not talking about 500,000, but 200 million Men, and the approximate ton of cargo required to move that many, about 200million tons. Most cargo planes can carry 350 tons per load on average, that comes out to 571,429 round trip flights just for the cargo. The U.S. Military the largest in the world has approximately 700 transport aircraft, at about 2 roundtrip flights a day, = 409 days, of nonstop flights. That is just the cargo, not the troops themselves. At 400 troops per flight that same number of aircraft would take about 360 days. This is all by plane which is the fastest means of transport. A 200million man army is a logistical nightmare, and even with all the aircraft in the world being used this would take many months. Throw in the fact that the population will be reduced by 1/4, and 1/3 and you will likely not have enough pilots to fly those missions or even planes being destroyed by wars you will not have the same number of planes. Ships and trains are slow, though they can move more cargo, but a 1/3 of the earths ships will be destroyed by then, and all the earthquakes and the rail line will be in disarray. That leaves only horseback as a viable form of transportation.  

You should be getting the idea here.

The timeline is one of overlapping visions. Each vision is ordered as it was given. If you read my OP you will see this. It is like a painting being painted (think Bob Ross on PBS) first you have the broad strokes of the background, and then the foreground, and then the characters, and then the battles etc. There is order, but there is overlap between the visions. It is a three dimensional timeline, that encompasses, what is past, and what is (at the time of John's writing) and what is to come in the future. This is how I can endorse what you say about the seals and yet add to that, that the trumpets coincide with the first 5 seals. 

The ingathering is done early so that people can be warned of their sins (Trumpets) then repent of their sins (Days of Awe) and then tabernacle with the Lord. The most important of these days is the day of Atonement. If sins are not atoned then there is going to be not tabernacling with our Lord. 

Rom 8:22... as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies...

The redemption of our bodies OF COURSE happens at the rapture.  

No, you are mistaken yet again, ignoring ANY KIND of chronology.  The truth is, those 200 million are at the 6th trumpet in the FIRST HALF of the week, and they are an angelic army.  We are discussing the preparations for the battle of Armageddon.  Who is to say that Satan, knowing what is coming, will have been getting troops close to Israel in preparation.  All kinds of human reasoning will not change what John has written.  If you feel the need to rearrange, just know your theory will be proven wrong. 

Just so you know, I spent the weekend on another forum disagreeing with someone that INSISTED the 7th trumpet comes before the 5th and 6th trumpet. Can you imagine?  There is no end to people that insist on rearranging. 

That leaves only horseback   Hmmm. No one knows who the ten kings are that "throw in" or join with the Beast for Armageddon. Suppose one of those nations is Germany: it is a very long horseback ride to Israel! It is around 1900 miles. If they covered 5 miles per hour, 16 hours a day, it would take almost a month. But then, there are ships. I will leave the logistics up to those involved when the time comes. If some of the armies come from the US, horseback is OUT!

You can believe in overlapping visions of you choose. I see no need for it. I think it was one long vision. And it makes perfect sense as it is written, one event following another exactly as John has written it.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Therefore we know that the abomination event happened seconds before 12:6. If you choose anywhere in chapter 11 for the abomination I would not argue. 

I Agree in part. The Abomination is not in chapter 11 though. I have purposely separated the two sentences in Daniel 9:27 below from the ESV, to illustrate the two points being made.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[fn] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

If you just had this sentence, you would say that the covenant made by the antichrist is a one week covenant and that sacrifice and offering is not allowed in the first half of the week.  

And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:27, ESV)

This second part adds that the there is a decreed end for the desolator, that is when this restriction on sacrifice and offering comes to an end. Daniel does not discuss this, but it is implied that this end is in the middle of this week. Do you see this? 

Israel willingly enters this covenant with the antichrist, in order to avoid the overflowing scourge, This is found in the companion passage to Daniel 9:27 that is often overlooked by prophecy writers. 

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. (Isa. 28:15-22)

This Passage is overlooked because it has a dual fulfillment one is speaking of Israel's alliances with Egypt to defeat the Assyrians which amounted to nothing but lies, But it also speaks of a future covenant they will make with the Antichrist, a foreign government power for protection. Notice how the language changes from verse 15 to 16 to speaking of Christ Jesus the cornerstone a verse quoted in the New testament, and then also the line and the plummet and the hail speaking of the end times. Had Israel received Jesus after Pentecost, the final week would have commenced exactly after Jesus was cut off, But the Mystery of the church age was inserted between the 69th and seventieth week. So here we have a prophecy that begins by speaking about a near fulfillment Israel's covenant with death an alliance between Israel and Egypt, and then jumping to the end of the 69th week when the cornerstone is laid in Zion and then the final week when the two witnesses shall have the line and the plummet, and the covenant with death of the antichrist this time will be disannulled. this breaking of the covenant with death being followed by the wrath of God on the Wicked.

Paul writes: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess. 2:8) What this says is the wicked one will be revealed, by doing the act the abomination, and then the Lord Jesus will destroy him his coming meaning the abomination comes before the Jesus returns to rapture the church. Now there is some question here as to when this is, Like the church will see the abomination committed and then be raptured immediately thus we get the "mortal wound theory" that pre-tribbers ascribe to or that we as a church will live through the time of abominations in the wilderness as well (flying not fleeing) and then the Lord Jesus will destroy the beast. I ascribe to the latter view as per the outline of events in Matthew 24, as clearly shown and stated by Jesus Christ. Do you follow the logic here? It is quite simple and even the pretribbers cannot contradict this so they come up with the mortal wound theory that Jesus kills the man of sin and then he is raised back to life by the FP. The Important thing to understand is that the church age is a mystery that was inserted into the timeline of weeks, between the end of the 69th and 70th week, and the first event that marks the beginning of the final week is the abomination of desolation. It cannot be any other way, whether you are pre-tribber or pre-wrath.