John's 7 visions and triangulating with other scriptures

[dhchristian]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Just so you know, I spent the weekend on another forum disagreeing with someone that INSISTED the 7th trumpet comes before the 5th and 6th trumpet. Can you imagine?  There is no end to people that insist on rearranging.

I Would never do this because this violates the rules of the OP. 

 

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You can believe in overlapping visions of you choose. I see no need for it. I think it was one long vision. And it makes perfect sense as it is written, one event following another exactly as John has written it.

With the insertion of a 30-40 sets of parenthesis.... Let's not sugar coat your timeline here, if you know what I mean.

 

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If they covered 5 miles per hour, 16 hours a day, it would take almost a month.

How long can a horse with rider travel in a day? Riders planning to cover very long distances usually only average around 20 miles a day on horseback. However, on one ride that covered a total of 2,600 miles, the horses averaged 31 miles per day. (Bing search).

1600/31=51.61 days. China to Israel is 5000 miles+ if china is involved? From Moscow to Jerusalem is 2263 miles. from Paris to Jerusalem is 2878 miles, From Berlin to Jerusalem is 2533 miles.

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, those 200 million are at the 6th trumpet in the FIRST HALF of the week, and they are an angelic army.

They are led by fallen angels. Four fallen angels that lead 200million horsemen. Now I do admit these horses could be some sort of robotic technology that does not have the limitations of live horses, as the description is anything but horse like. for example something like this.  

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree in part. The Abomination is not in chapter 11 though. I have purposely separated the two sentences in Daniel 9:27 below from the ESV, to illustrate the two points being made.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[fn] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

If you just had this sentence, you would say that the covenant made by the antichrist is a one week covenant and that sacrifice and offering is not allowed in the first half of the week.  

And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:27, ESV)

This second part adds that the there is a decreed end for the desolator, that is when this restriction on sacrifice and offering comes to an end. Daniel does not discuss this, but it is implied that this end is in the middle of this week. Do you see this? 

Israel willingly enters this covenant with the antichrist, in order to avoid the overflowing scourge, This is found in the companion passage to Daniel 9:27 that is often overlooked by prophecy writers. 

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. (Isa. 28:15-22)

This Passage is overlooked because it has a dual fulfillment one is speaking of Israel's alliances with Egypt to defeat the Assyrians which amounted to nothing but lies, But it also speaks of a future covenant they will make with the Antichrist, a foreign government power for protection. Notice how the language changes from verse 15 to 16 to speaking of Christ Jesus the cornerstone a verse quoted in the New testament, and then also the line and the plummet and the hail speaking of the end times. Had Israel received Jesus after Pentecost, the final week would have commenced exactly after Jesus was cut off, But the Mystery of the church age was inserted between the 69th and seventieth week. So here we have a prophecy that begins by speaking about a near fulfillment Israel's covenant with death an alliance between Israel and Egypt, and then jumping to the end of the 69th week when the cornerstone is laid in Zion and then the final week when the two witnesses shall have the line and the plummet, and the covenant with death of the antichrist this time will be disannulled. this breaking of the covenant with death being followed by the wrath of God on the Wicked.

Paul writes: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess. 2:8) What this says is the wicked one will be revealed, by doing the act the abomination, and then the Lord Jesus will destroy him his coming meaning the abomination comes before the Jesus returns to rapture the church. Now there is some question here as to when this is, Like the church will see the abomination committed and then be raptured immediately thus we get the "mortal wound theory" that pre-tribbers ascribe to or that we as a church will live through the time of abominations in the wilderness as well (flying not fleeing) and then the Lord Jesus will destroy the beast. I ascribe to the latter view as per the outline of events in Matthew 24, as clearly shown and stated by Jesus Christ. Do you follow the logic here? It is quite simple and even the pretribbers cannot contradict this so they come up with the mortal wound theory that Jesus kills the man of sin and then he is raised back to life by the FP. The Important thing to understand is that the church age is a mystery that was inserted into the timeline of weeks, between the end of the 69th and 70th week, and the first event that marks the beginning of the final week is the abomination of desolation. It cannot be any other way, whether you are pre-tribber or pre-wrath.  

It makes no sense at all that the man of sin would allow no sacrifices for the first half, then allow then in the second half. But, suppose you tell us what he WILL BE doing during the last half of the week.  I think the last half will be the days of GT, but you disagree.  He HATES Israel and in the end, he is going to (along with 10 other kings) attempt to wipe Israel off the map. 

John's progression is that things get progressively worse, from the trumpets in the first half to the days of GT in the last half and then the vials to shorten those says of GT. Then, since God has cut his days of murder short, his plan is to destroy all traces of Israel and Jerusalem which will result in Armageddon. So from the man of sin NOT revealed to the revealing, the Beast arising, to the days of GT to the battle or Armageddon.  This just makes far more sense. 

Do you see this?   I see that SOMETHING must divide the week. Daniel tells us it is some event that happens MIDPOINT in the week, hence the division. Which is most likely? The START of daily sacrifices? Or the ending of daily sacrifices? 

 

I am sorry, but you have such a jumbled up mess of Revelation, I am bowing out. I just hope your theory works for you to the end.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Would never do this because this violates the rules of the OP. 

 

With the insertion of a 30-40 sets of parenthesis.... Let's not sugar coat your timeline here, if you know what I mean.

 

How long can a horse with rider travel in a day? Riders planning to cover very long distances usually only average around 20 miles a day on horseback. However, on one ride that covered a total of 2,600 miles, the horses averaged 31 miles per day. (Bing search).

1600/31=51.61 days. China to Israel is 5000 miles+ if china is involved? From Moscow to Jerusalem is 2263 miles. from Paris to Jerusalem is 2878 miles, From Berlin to Jerusalem is 2533 miles.

They are led by fallen angels. Four fallen angels that lead 200million horsemen. Now I do admit these horses could be some sort of robotic technology that does not have the limitations of live horses, as the description is anything but horse like. for example something like this.  

Are y0u prone to exaggeration? I have shown three parenthesis: chapter 11, chapter 13 and chapter 20. I see them as something that John included, not that I added.  What do you see in the description that leads you to believe they are fallen angels? And hat leads you to believe that men are riding them? 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Rev 13:5-6 is the abomination of desolation. The Abomination of desolation is a time of abominations that lasts for 42 months, that begins with the Antichrist declaring himself God in the Holy Place. I Would think you agree with this, but just disagree with my timing on when this occurs. I Say it occurs at the start of the final week, you say at the middle of the week. I think Jesus was clear, that it was at the beginning of the week and the time of abominations lasts for Half of the week. The covenant itself is for a week, but is immediately broken by the Antichrist when he declares himself God in the Holy Place hence this is a covenant with death. Israel must deal with this by fleeing. The Covenant is broken by Jesus returning and destroying the beast, the Kingdom of the Antichrist, by the brightness of his coming and the breath of his mouth. 

It is perhaps both the abomination AND the desolation that lasts for half a week. The man of sin entering the temple is only a period of time: He is not going to stay there for 3.5 years. But it seems He sets the image (probably of himself) up there which will stay for the whole 42 months. 

By the way, if the man of sin only gets 42 months, and it is in the first half, then his authority would END at the midpoint. Do you believe Jesus returns in the middle of the week?  I don't think so.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Are y0u prone to exaggeration? I have shown three parenthesis: chapter 11, chapter 13 and chapter 20. I see them as something that John included, not that I added.  What do you see in the description that leads you to believe they are fallen angels? And hat leads you to believe that men are riding them?

You forgot chapter 12, chapter 17, chapter 15, Chapter 14 etc. . this should tell you something.... But alas I am hoping for too much.... Notice when your parenthesis begin? My timeline has no need for these parenthesis.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

You forgot chapter 12, chapter 17, chapter 15, Chapter 14 etc. . this should tell you something.... But alas I am hoping for too much.... Notice when your parenthesis begin? My timeline has no need for these parenthesis.

Ah! Thanks. I did miss chapter 12. Sorry. I don't see any in chapter 15 or 17 or 14. Perhaps, if there are any in those chapters, YOU can find them. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

By the way, if the man of sin only gets 42 months, and it is in the first half, then his authority would END at the midpoint. Do you believe Jesus returns in the middle of the week?  I don't think so.

Yes. That is when the rapture is, the day of Christ. The Day of the LORD is when wrath comes upon the wicked. There is in revelation the wrath of the lamb, and the wrath of God. There is a day of Christ, and a Day of the LORD. The Day of Christ is marked with Joy upon those who are believers. The Day of the LORD is Sorrow for the unbelievers. The first half of the week is the wrath of the dragon, The second half is the Wrath of God. In between is the Day of Christ, a day of redemption for the church, and the judgment of the goats/tares within the church. Judgment begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4;17, Look this verse up in context). Yes, Jesus is the LORD, But the days are different.

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Ah! Thanks. I did miss chapter 12. Sorry. I don't see any in chapter 15 or 17 or 14. Perhaps, if there are any in those chapters, YOU can find them. 

you yourself put them there on this thread go back and look it up

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Just now, dhchristian said:

You forgot chapter 12, chapter 17, chapter 15, Chapter 14 etc. . this should tell you something.... But alas I am hoping for too much.... Notice when your parenthesis begin? My timeline has no need for these parenthesis.

Ah! Thanks. I did miss chapter 12. Sorry. I don't see any in chapter 15 or 17 or 14. Perhaps, if there are any in those chapters, YOU can find them.

My Point here being you see the need for overlapping visions, but you instead use parenthesis, and in so doing are missing out on the depth of the three dimensional timeline that is found in revelation, which is the point of this Post.  

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

My Point here being you see the need for overlapping visions, but you instead use parenthesis, and in so doing are missing out on the depth of the three dimensional timeline that is found in revelation, which is the point of this Post.  

Sorry, but I am only recognizing the fact that John did include some parenthesis. A parenthesis is not an overlap and never will be. Sorry. Your point is heard but your theory is FAR FAR more complicated that God ever planned.  It is a revealing, not a hiding.