The Barbarian Posted March 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2020 5 hours ago, dad2 said: Not at all. He ate food to demonstrate He was physical, and He walked through walls etc to show He was also spiritual. Both. Remember, Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. So it's not surprising. But being man is not the property of an eternal God. God is essentially incomprehensible, so you try to bring him down to the properties of a creature to make Him comprehensible. It won't work. God is radically unlike creatures and cannot be adequately understood in ways appropriate to them. God is simple in that God transcends every form of complexity and composition familiar to the discursive intellect. One consequence is that the simple God lacks parts. This lack is not a deficiency but a positive feature. God is ontologically superior to every partite entity, and his partlessness is an index thereof. Broadly construed, ‘part’ covers not only spatial and temporal parts (if any) but also metaphysical ‘parts’ or ontological constituents. To say that God lacks metaphysical parts is to say inter alia that God is free of matter-form composition, potency-act composition, and existence-essence composition. There is also no real distinction between God as subject of his attributes and his attributes. God is thus in some sense identical to each of his attributes, which implies that each attribute is identical to every other one. God is omniscient, then, not in virtue of instantiating or exemplifying omniscience — which would imply a real distinction between God and the property of omniscience — but by being omniscience. And the same holds for each of the divine omni-attributes: God is what he has as Augustine puts it in The City of God, XI, 10. As identical to each of his attributes, God is identical to his nature. And since his nature or essence is identical to his existence, God is identical to his existence. This is the doctrine of divine simplicity (DDS). But how are we to understand ‘identity’ in this context? Is it an equivalence relation governed by the Indiscernibility of Identicals? Or is it some ‘looser’ form of sameness? These are important questions but ones that cannot be addressed in this entry except in passing. DDS is represented not only in classical Christian theology, but also in Jewish, Greek, and Islamic thought. It is to be understood as an affirmation of God’s absolute transcendence of creatures. God is not only radically non-anthropomorphic, but radically unlike creatures in general, not only in respect of the properties he possesses, but also in his manner of possessing them. It is not just that God has properties no creature has; the properties he has he has in a way different from the way any creature has any of its properties. God has his properties by being them. Unique in his mode of property-possession, God is also unique in his mode of existence and in his modal status. He is not just one necessary being among others. His metaphysical necessity, unlike that of other necessary beings, is grounded in his simplicity. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-simplicity/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 19, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,508 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 184 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Online Share Posted March 19, 2020 8 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Quote Remember, Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. So it's not surprising. But being man is not the property of an eternal God. It is now! Jesus is God and He became a man and has a body now an eternal physical and spiritual body. He still had the wounds after He rose from the dead. Quote God is essentially incomprehensible, so you try to bring him down to the properties of a creature to make Him comprehensible. It won't work. Jesus came down to make Himself comprehensible! Quote God is radically unlike creatures and cannot be adequately understood in ways appropriate to them. Except that He is radically like us now since He rose from the dead in an eternal body that was like ours and yet also spiritual. We shall be like Him. 8 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Quote God is simple in that God transcends every form of complexity and composition familiar to the discursive intellect. One consequence is that the simple God lacks parts. He had hands, actuall and feet. He ate food. That is not lacking anything! In fact He had a lot more because He also had a spiritual body. Quote This lack is not a deficiency but a positive feature. God is ontologically superior to every partite entity, and his partlessness is an index thereof. Broadly construed, ‘part’ covers not only spatial and temporal parts (if any) but also metaphysical ‘parts’ or ontological constituents. To say that God lacks metaphysical parts is to say inter alia that God is free of matter-form composition, potency-act composition, and existence-essence composition. There is also no real distinction between God as subject of his attributes and his attributes. God is thus in some sense identical to each of his attributes, which implies that each attribute is identical to every other one. God is omniscient, then, not in virtue of instantiating or exemplifying omniscience — which would imply a real distinction between God and the property of omniscience — but by being omniscience. And the same holds for each of the divine omni-attributes: God is what he has as Augustine puts it in The City of God, XI, 10. As identical to each of his attributes, God is identical to his nature. And since his nature or essence is identical to his existence, God is identical to his existence. This is the doctrine of divine simplicity (DDS). But how are we to understand ‘identity’ in this context? Is it an equivalence relation governed by the Indiscernibility of Identicals? Or is it some ‘looser’ form of sameness? These are important questions but ones that cannot be addressed in this entry except in passing. This mumbo jumbo tells me you have over thought it and did so using your own mind. Quote DDS is represented not only in classical Christian theology, but also in Jewish, Greek, and Islamic thought. It is to be understood as an affirmation of God’s absolute transcendence of creatures. God is not only radically non-anthropomorphic, but radically unlike creatures in general, not only in respect of the properties he possesses, but also in his manner of possessing them. It is not just that God has properties no creature has; the properties he has he has in a way different from the way any creature has any of its properties. God has his properties by being them. Unique in his mode of property-possession, God is also unique in his mode of existence and in his modal status. He is not just one necessary being among others. His metaphysical necessity, unlike that of other necessary beings, is grounded in his simplicity. Plato did not know God or what he was talking about. Now if I wanted to know about bath houses or something I might ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 19, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2020 Remember, Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. So it's not surprising. But being man is not the property of an eternal God. 36 minutes ago, dad2 said: It is now! Nope. Eternal means "always was, always will be." e·ter·nal /əˈtərn(ə)l/ adjective adjective: eternal 1. lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning. God is essentially incomprehensible, so you try to bring him down to the properties of a creature to make Him comprehensible. It won't work. 39 minutes ago, dad2 said: Jesus came down to make Himself comprehensible! Well, let's take a look... Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. So, no. 45 minutes ago, dad2 said: This mumbo jumbo tells me you have over thought it and did so using your own mind. You reject the idea of God being essentially different than creatures, because a God of that scale is not acceptable to you. That's why you want to bring Him down to a more manageable level. 47 minutes ago, dad2 said: Plato did not know God or what he was talking about. But the Christian fathers did, and they realized God wasn't just a big guy a lot more powerful than the rest of us. He is the omnipotent Creator,and therefore not limited as any being with a body must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,508 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 184 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Online Share Posted March 20, 2020 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Quote Remember, Jesus is both wholly man and wholly God. So it's not surprising. But being man is not the property of an eternal God. Nope. Eternal means "always was, always will be." Well, Jesus was here eternally, but His resurrected body was new! And as He put it 'alive forevermore'. Quote God is essentially incomprehensible, so you try to bring him down to the properties of a creature to make Him comprehensible. jesus is easy to comprehend. He came down to show us what He was like and give us the choice to choose Him. Quote Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. He revealed it to them. Parables were something that hid meanings from the devoid, not from us. In the case of a few mysteries, it of course took time for the disciples to understand. His Spirit still reveals stuff. That does not mean all that Jesus was and did was not clearly seen. Healing people and loving people etc. Quote Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Right. Now if those rascals would come to Him then they too could be in the loop! Quote You reject the idea of God being essentially different than creatures, because a God of that scale is not acceptable to you. False and foolish. I never said anything about God being equal to creatures. The so called science you follow apparently though does say man shares relatives with flatworms. We shall be like Jesus but that does not mean we will be Jesus! Quote That's why you want to bring Him down to a more manageable level. God came down here and did just that. He made Himself just like us and got down and dirty and showed us what He was like. Quote But the Christian fathers did, and they realized God wasn't just a big guy a lot more powerful than the rest of us. He is the omnipotent Creator,and therefore not limited as any being with a body must be. God did not have to come down here, He did it out of love. That does not make Him less wonderful or Almighty. The way to know God is to know Jesus and there is no other way. If we have known Him then we also have known His Father! The pi in the sky 'god' that some folks envision is some big unknowable far off ghost sort of thing. A supposed spirit that apparently can't get the bible right, and was hiding somewhere maybe watching when the universe made itself. He also was MIA when evolution basically created all life including man! That is not knowing God, and it is not believing His word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coliseum Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 1,123 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 2,055 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/07/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 18 hours ago, dad2 said: Not at all. He ate food to demonstrate He was physical, and He walked through walls etc to show He was also spiritual. Both. Can you cite the verse where it says, "He walked through walls"? Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 13 hours ago, dad2 said: jesus is easy to comprehend. He came down to show us what He was like and give us the choice to choose Him. The mystery of the Trinity is beyond any human comprehension. What we must do to be saved, that's comprehensible. God is beyond all human understanding. 13 hours ago, dad2 said: He also was MIA when evolution basically created all life including man! He didn't use evolution to create life. He says the earth brought forth living things as He intended. Let God be what He is, and just trust Him. Let the rest of it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Coliseum said: Can you cite the verse where it says, "He walked through walls"? Thx. Hmm... never heard that one before... (Barbarian checks) No, I see nothing therein about walking through walls. Like a literal six-day creation, it's an addition to scripture based on a personal interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,508 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 184 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Online Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Quote The mystery of the Trinity is beyond any human comprehension. What we must do to be saved, that's comprehensible. God is beyond all human understanding. We understand God pretty well now that He came and revealed what He was like. He is our Friend. Quote He didn't use evolution to create life. Correct. Quote He says the earth brought forth living things as He intended. In other words from the earth He also created all creatures as well as man. The earth was not what done it, He did it all using the earth. He did it in a sequence and in 6 days. The TOE does not fit Scripture. Quote Let God be what He is, and just trust Him. Jesus is what He is. As real as a husband or wife or parent. We know what He is like and we know Him. Edited March 20, 2020 by dad2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 2 hours ago, dad2 said: We understand God pretty well now If we declare so, we are just kidding ourselves. God is beyond all human understanding. Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 2 hours ago, dad2 said: The earth was not what done it Well, let's take a look... Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Sorry, God disagrees with you. 2 hours ago, dad2 said: He did it in a sequence and in 6 days. That's a modern revision of Genesis. Let it be God's way, instead of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dad2 Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,508 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 184 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2020 Status: Online Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Quote If we declare so, we are just kidding ourselves. God is beyond all human understanding. Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. We know Him. We may not know how He imparts heavenly peace supernaturally, but we know what He is like. Jesus showed us what He was like. 1Jo 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Quote Well, let's take a look... Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Sorry, God disagrees with you. No. He made it clear how man was created. We were formed. He made it clear how woman was created. The only connection with the earth for Eve was that Adam was created using dust of the earth. The earth brought forth fruits and trees also, but only after God planted them. He planted the garden. The plants no more just appeared from the earth than Eve did. "All sorts of living creatures that live and move upon the earth; not that the earth was endued with a power to produce these creatures of itself, without the interposition of God: for though it might be impregnated with a quickening virtue by the Spirit of God, which moved on it whilst a fluid, and had been prepared and disposed for such a production by the heat of the body of light created on the first day, and of the sun on the fourth; yet no doubt it was by the power of God accompanying his word, that these creatures were produced of the earth, and formed into their several shapes." http://classic.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=1&verse=24 The next verse shows God made them. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. "The Lord gave the word; he said, Let the earth bring forth, not as if the earth had any such prolific virtue as to produce these animals, or as if God resigned his creating power to it; but, "Let these creatures now come into being upon the earth, and out of it, in their respective kinds, conformable to the ideas of them in the divine counsels concerning their creation." 2. He also did the work; he made them all after their kind, not only of divers shapes, but of divers natures, manners, food, and fashions--some to be tame about the house, others to be wild in the fields--some living upon grass and herbs, others upon flesh--some harmless, and others ravenous--some bold, and others timorous--some for man's service, and not his sustenance, as the horse--others for his sustenance, and not his service, as the sheep--others for both, as the ox--and some for neither, as the wild beasts. In all this appears the manifold wisdom of the Creator." http://classic.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=1&verse=24#Ge1_24 So there is no connection to TOE whatsoever. Edited March 20, 2020 by dad2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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